classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Barryhill8 on January 31, 2024, 05:41:16 PM
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I need help to find the correct Francis Barnett model I bought last week. It has the Frame number YY-4667 and the Villiers motor No 20321.
The seller thought it was a 1955 model.
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Hmmm ?
https://cybermotorcycle.com/marques/francis-barnett/francis-barnett-serial-numbers.htm
A 56 Plover 78
https://www.justbikes.com.au/motorcycles-for-sale/1956-francis-barnett-150cc-78-plover/JBM3265134#&gid=1&pid=1
A 55 Cruiser model with a 225cc engine ? - the latest and greatest in sleek design and power egg engine
https://www.eurooldtimers.com/data/galerie/photos/20978.jpg
Or a F55 alcon 74 with the well proven 197cc
https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2009-03/19/7855261-3-1.JPG
etc
How does yours compare with these.
I'd have thought there would be some letters before the engine number ?
Any chance of a pic ?
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The first Y in the frame number shows it to be from 1957 but there is no YY. A single Y, yes plus YC, YM, YB plus YTM and YSM but no YY.
Your engine number is not quite right either.
If you give the bike a really good clean and look closely you should be able to pick the numbers out a little better. They can often be awkward to read.
Do not trust any paperwork numbers.
No trouble identifying it with the right numbers.
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The frame is YY-4667 as the photo. All I can see on the engine is the number 20321. I attach some photos. I do need to find an ignition switch, any ideas where?
Thank you very much for your help! The bike is in New Zealand.
Kind regards
Barry Hill
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Nothing attached ?
Is there a photo of the whole bike available.
This is more reliable than chasing numbers ...
And would likely assist in what switch you may require.
Cheers.
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Photos don’t really help. They are never as clear as looking with the No1 eyeball. Hence the suggestion to give the bike a really good clean and LOOK.
YY wouldn’t surprise me. I’m in Oz and I’m fairly cynical about the Poms sending not quite right bikes overseas where complaining is useless. Someone doing a whoopsie and stamping the Y twice wouldn’t surprise me.
Villiers used a three number followed by a letter identification prefix before the individual number for that engine, so you would see something like 123A 1234. In your case, if it is the original engine I would expect it to start 295B.
Eventually Villiers affixed an identity plate which says what type of engine is fitted which sorted out the whole issue anyway but with an old bike all sorts of things can happen over its lifetime so initially things can be a bit of a mystery.
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Pic(s) of the whole bike definitely does help !
Or, bikes sent to NZ got a YY prefix.
And no one else knows about it .... ?
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Yes a full photo might help a bit but isn’t definitive. If the owner wants to legally put the bike on the road the NZ authorities will want the numbers, not a photo. Those numbers are the bikes legal identity. They not only identify what it is, they identify the legal owner. Just because you’ve bought a bike and have a receipt doesn’t necessarily make you the legal owner.Was the seller legally entitled to sell it?
Many people don’t take them seriously but getting them wrong can cause much frustration and a pain in the pocket.
Much more practical (and cheaper) to get them right first off.
Sorry to be boring about it but that’s how it is.
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That's funny because once, c1982, I bought a Francis Barnett with altered numbers. When I noticed, I asked the guy I'd purchased it from for a refund, which he initially agreed to, but after "legal advice" refused. So I contacted the police. I had to take the bike to (wait for it) Russell Street Police Headquarters in Melbourne, to the inner courtyard via the entrance used by the cast of Homicide in their Studebaker police cars in the 1960s!!! Showing my age now. What a highlight! The bike was c1949, and the guy I bought it from said he rode it to uni in the 1960s, and it had been off the road since then. Other than that both numbers had been clumsily changed, the police could say no more, so it was off to have a new VP number stamped on it. My wife rode it for a couple of years in VMCC rallies...
Leon
Edit: Wow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_(Australian_TV_series)
Double wow: https://www.imcdb.org/v971596.html
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Trying again, I am having trouble getting photos to go.
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Another photo
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Is that number on a riveted on tag ??
This comes up online as a 1957 Plover
(https://classic-motorbikes.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/8009.jpg)
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Ditto, as a Plover 1957 150cc
(https://assets.carandclassic.com/uploads/cars/francis-barnett/C1498555/1957-francis-barnett-plover-150cc-631a05c79128c.jpg?ar=4%3A3&auto=&fill=blur&fit=fillmax&h=600&ixlib=php-4.1.0&max-w=800&q=75&w=800&s=0ba2126a9d528faee950f7081832f7ef)
Wheelbase looks longer than the micro car in the background !
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Ages ago I also bought a 250 BSA, but from a deceased estate clear out, a 1930 model. Much later I had a policeman turn up saying it was reported stolen back in the 1940’s! Eventually I was allowed to keep it because the police couldn’t find any of the parties involved still alive. All they could find was evidence the deceased estate had taken it in as a trade in. All pre computer of course. Finally they said I could keep it but I was left hanging for a few months and couldn’t do anything with it.
I got the message though that my ownership would always be a bit vague so not a happy camper.
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There was a tidy restored BSA B40 on Ebay recently, and the price was quite low too. Turns out that at some time in the past some t*at had poorly restamped the frame and engine numbers and the BSAOC declined to issue a dating letter (quite rightly).
Engine numbers are no biggie, but it would need a reframe to get around the iffy frame numbers.
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That definitely looks like a Plover - I had one as my first bike way back. It was quite reliable but slow.......
197cc 8E engine IIRC.
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We diverge a little. The engine number remains a mystery. It looks like a 30C in the photo but the number given doesn’t.
Villiers advise the 30C number is found on the front engine lug. I expect it to be in two lines one above the other and if the original engine for it to commence 295B. I’ve never seen an original Villiers number just as a row of numbers.
It can be an awkward place to look and the numbers are sometimes faint. It can take some effort and is one of the reasons I don’t like photos of them.
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Thanks all who helped on this one. It seems it is a 1957 Plover. All I need now is the ignition switch and a wiring drawing if any one can help?
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I think this will be your switch ??
Check with them 1st - very useful suppliers.
https://villiersservices.co.uk/product/villiers-four-postion-lighting-switch/
Finding unobtanium for less than a squillion quid would seem quite remarkable !!
Now, do you have a battery in this beastie.
FB, James and misc other villiers all used approx the same diagrams.
Although the wiring colours and feature may vary, across the millenia..
Its possible new harnesses may abound.
Determining which features you need on which diagram may keep you entertained, for some time ??
The specific Owners Manual for your bike may have a diagram ?
https://www.britishmotorcyclemanuals.com/acatalog/1958-Francis-Barnett-Plover-78-instruction-manual-Book_0591.html#SID=206
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As with most postwar Villiers engines there are two wiring diagrams available. One the “rectifier” diagram that provides for charging a battery and thus having a steady lighting plus a stop/brake light. The second the el cheapo “direct” no battery lighting system where the degree of lighting available rises and falls with the engine revs and fitting a stop light requires a bit more shenanigans.
Both are archaic and my electronic engineer nephew positively gurgled with horror when first I showed the two options to him. Most people find it no great drama to update and vastly improve Villiers electrics using modern electronic components.
Francis Barnett used these same Villiers diagrams. There is no special Francis Barnett wiring drawing. Both Villiers Mk 30C Operators Instructions and the Francis Barnett Plover Owners instructions are cheaply available from multiple sources, I’d suggest Villers Services for the engine as you’ll be bound to use them sooner or later for bits and bobs and the UK National Motorcycle Museum for the Fanny Bee handbook. The NMM are very handy for overseas buyers as they will send an electronic download. You’re not waiting weeks for a book coming through the post.
Best of luck.
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Thank you all, very helpful!
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I think this will be your switch ??
Check with them 1st - very useful suppliers.
https://villiersservices.co.uk/product/villiers-four-postion-lighting-switch/
Finding unobtanium for less than a squillion quid would seem quite remarkable !!
Now, do you have a battery in this beastie.
FB, James and misc other villiers all used approx the same diagrams.
Although the wiring colours and feature may vary, across the millenia..
Its possible new harnesses may abound.
Determining which features you need on which diagram may keep you entertained, for some time ??
The specific Owners Manual for your bike may have a diagram ?
https://www.britishmotorcyclemanuals.com/acatalog/1958-Francis-Barnett-Plover-78-instruction-manual-Book_0591.html#SID=206
[No battery so very simple thanks, found a switch and just need a tailight. I can put a non original but if there was an original around?]
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What does the fitting(s) for the tail light look like.
Round/square/oblong 1,2 or 3 holes.
Finding anything electrical and original is a black science these days.
Usually you have to make do with replica/offerings. Or get very lucky.
Here is a smattering of choices.
Anything look suitable.
Such things were often quite small back then, usually owners now opt for something bigger and more visible.
Not being rear-ended by some noddy on the phone has much to commend it ...
https://www.classicbikepartscheshire.com/electrical-c3/rear-lamps-lenses-c15/francis-barnett-t28