classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => Identify these bikes! => Topic started by: R on July 19, 2026, 07:46:45 AM
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OK, whatizit ?
Looks a bit Waratah, but doesn't have the gearchange through the petrol tank.
And the forks look chunkier ?
Coming up for auction next month ?, so may be more details then.
Enough missing to keep the new owner awake at night ....
https://scontent.fbne5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/748568222_1796919814999970_838114587227374269_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx2048x1537&ctp=s960x960&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=946e27&_nc_ohc=hnAfGCHmubYQ7kNvwH1FWNH&_nc_oc=AdrBsc8nGpxvg45271Ats07ehamqEF7w9WnYFBDWnC35VFmd76WSt4S9ttJf2Fj-zHk&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne5-1.fna&_nc_gid=i98g2pvOTsLEitBXwkCJRw&_nc_ss=7b289&oh=00_AQAG6z-H2xGx6mrjqCG21_NkfOEULAvJB9j0eGGUxO1l4Q&oe=6A623580
A good tank clean may discern some remnants of a decal ??
Obviously been used for possum spotting !
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That tank decal looks to be Waratah.
So what year/model could that be ?
https://scontent.fbne5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/740271888_1790259692332649_3312247724373031733_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_tt6&cstp=mx1537x2048&ctp=s960x960&_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=946e27&_nc_ohc=kJQxXcJtFoUQ7kNvwH8uF5T&_nc_oc=AdofLX6NK3hWDvVLAjACoCBPj-BvovfkVgqOY22OIokNN5ZpHIP5_UWYEQCrAhoRAyI&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne5-1.fna&_nc_gid=WIC_VlECCqNMaqjinRboCA&_nc_ss=7b289&oh=00_AQCIBQxBlIXEt4urO54Ivs6MFufhp1uL-brNhQ9Uhv8lew&oe=6A63556C
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Presumably the bike is in Australia?
The transfer on the right side of the tank looks to be Waratah, and the engine/gear unit seems to be Villiers 8D/9D... Waratah first had these bikes in mid-1937, and got them back after the war in mid-1946. Post war Excelsiors had the gear change through the tank, as did Waratahs that we know about.
Let's guess late 1930s, or 1946. Looking at the headlamp, I might lean towards 1946. But, as 33d6 has taught us, the numbers will tell!
Leon
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Apparently its coming up for auction - NSW
These are some pre-auction publicity.
Hopefully all will be revealed.
I'd opt for prewar, not sure that external gear lever was ever postwar on Waratahs ?
Anything is possible after 80+ years though.
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Just pre-war or just post-war is often a difficult call. There's a "1914" single cylinder, shaft drive FN current for sale here in South Australia - it's a lovely bike but I strongly suspect it's actually 1920-build. For FN the war was pretty clear cut: Liege was overrun, the FN factory was taken over for German war work and there were no motorcycles made from 1914 until 1920. The first bikes of 1920 were pretty-much 1914 models.
Not sure what happened at Excelsior, but they did manage to build 5000+ Welbikes during the war. The Excelsior/Waratah in question has some pre-war-ish features, like the gear change and the bolt-on rear subframe, but a hint of postwar with the headlamp and (maybe) the front fork. The other well-known Australian bike of the era was the Acme (much more Australian-made than the Waratah), and it used the Sackville pressed-steel fork pre-war and the Webb post-war, so maybe there is an element of that here. Some Acmes for the early war years (1940-ish) used the "modern" "bullet" Villiers headlamp rather than the old "tobacco tin".
So very hard indeed to spot differences between a 1939 model bike and the first bikes delivered in 1946, when getting stuff out the door was more important than adhering to a catalogue specification. The 1946 Waratahs and the 1946 Excelsiors may have differed: if there were left-over pre-war parts in the factory I know where I'd send them! Numbers will give more clues.
Leon
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Hmmm, not a whole lot more info !
https://australia.hibid.com/lot/312716531/original-waratah-barn-find--rare-sydney-made-bike
Lotta minor details are different to my 1945/46
Not sure its even worth that $500 opening bid.
But mabbe being 'rare' will make it worth it ?
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Excellent: the new photos show that the headlamp is indeed the "prewar" VEC item with the flat back, so I can officially lean back towards "late pre war" rather than "early post war". It would be good to ask for engine and frame numbers: so far as I know the 9D number is on top of the gearbox (best viewed from the left side) pre war, then vertically on the back of the gearbox just post war, then easy to read on the right end of the gearbox from around 1947-8 or so. But I don't know where the frame number is on an Excelsior Universal/Waratah is in these years???
Leon
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Looks like a regular pre-war Model 0 Excelsior to me but with the slightly sturdier pressed steel forks as used on other model Excelsior at the time. Easily identified by the frame number. The post war Excelsior had both a different frame and the gear change through the tank nonsense. We all know that the Waratah was simply a rebadged Excelsior and this is just another example.
The frame number will tell all.
The prewar model looked quite different from the postwar job with its utterly different exhaust layout and different inlet manifold. Nothing that makes any difference to the performance but just makes the beast look different from the other hordes of 9D powered bikes. The tight money woes of the thirties plus the looming war clouds where everyone knew petrol would be scarce and fuel economy was going to be a big thing led to a surprising number of manufacturers to bring out a 9D powered bike. I have a 1939 Montgomery and a 1940 Excelsior on the bench at the moment. There's little difference between that Waratah and my 1940 Excelsior.
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The frame number will tell all.
Indeed. Where is it likely located? I'm happy to ask the auctioneer, but best to tell him where to look.
Leon
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The frame number on my postwar Waratah is vertically on the left side of the steering head.
Prewar Excelsior.
Named Fred !
I can vouch not for its authenticity - 33d6 ?
(https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-owners/images/Excelsior-1938-125cc-Twinport.jpg)
We see that someone has opened the bidding in that auction...
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R has both answered your question and provided a nice photo for us as well. The only remark I would make about that admirable restoration is the disappointing tank paint job. The factory paint job included a coloured panel either side (usually red) with lining. Still, no great drama, just money, to get that right.
It’s just a pity to get so close and not give the wee beastie the one piece of frippery that would set it off.
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Aha, I did wonder that
It was the 1st one I came across in a random search
(https://www.andybuysbikes.com/images/Bike%20images/Excelsior/3781exc/Excelsior%20125%20006.jpg)
There seem to be several versions of that decal ?
That exhaust looks like a real leg burner ??
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That’s more like it, including the matte black silencer with slimmer tail pipe.
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A mate has the identical twin, other than his exhausts are standard low-level.
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Aye. High pipes was a prewar thing.
If the model you wanted didn't come with them, you could probably order them anyway.
Road trials, of the long distance type were very popular.
And having 'the look" sold very well.
Just watch out for the leg burning potential !
https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/norton-1939/images/Norton-1939-Trials-Cat-EML.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSz7_Ug88IXC1rM54I8AOpqoBZsFA4uKvPrJxcF8CT6eKAyMSLwdOFkeas9
However, the 1939 Excelsior brochure shows high level exhausts as std fittings on the 125cc Universal,
so you'd expect the Waratah here to be the same ...
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/emEAAeSwa3VpZTSD/s-l1600.jpg
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I think the high pipes with Excelsior was just a matter of making your 9D powered bike look a little different from the rest. So many makers took up the 9D they all tended to look the same so a maker had to do something to stand out. It had nothing to do with competition, Excelsior had the Manxman for that.
Wolf also fitted high pipes but Wolf never had the same exposure as did Excelsior.
So far I can list Coventry Eagle, Montgomery, Wolf, Excelsior, Carlton, Chell and of course Francis Barnett and James as making 9D powered bikes without listing the Continental users.
Nevertheless, a private entry 9D powered Excelsior did earn a bronze medal in the 1938 ISDT so they were willing beastie if you pushed.
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It had nothing to do with competition,
It never actually occurred to me they might be used for competition.
If someone won a medal in the ISDT, then I'm in awe !!
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However, the 1939 Excelsior brochure shows high level exhausts as std fittings on the 125cc Universal,
so you'd expect the Waratah here to be the same ...
I have a pretty poor illustration of a 125cc (8D presumably) Waratah in December 1937 and it certainly has high level pipes like the GO Universal Excelsior.
I've emailed the auctioneer re engine/frame numbers for the Waratah.
Leon
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The 8D/9D engine did much better in the ISDT than you think R. The Dutch make Eysink, were the other user besides Excelsior and the record is 1937, three Eysink entered winning two bronze and the other retiring with a frame breakage. 1938 saw one Eysink and the Excelsior entered, both winning bronze. 1939 was the ISDT run on the verge of WWII where the entire British contingent left before the event was over. The Excelsior owner "retired" on the second day but we don't know whether he actually retired or left when told as no one really reported on the activities of private entries. It was all about the official teams. Those representing the country, the Army teams, Club teams and the like, private entries rarely got mentioned much and rarely photographed. Usually they just turn up as background in the odd photo. No Eysink were entered for 1939. Finally Eysink had three 9D powered entries in the first postwar ISDT and won a Gold and two Silvers.
Not a bad effort all up for a 125cc Villiers.
I look forward to any reply from the auctioneer. It'll make interesting reading.
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From the auctioneers: " The engine number is AAA24024A was located running vertically down centre of the gearbox. Will add the photo later.
Frame number is not visible, will send a photo of the steering head casting."
What do you think 33d6? Are we very-late-pre-war, wartime, or very-early-post-war? I don't think I'd argue if someone said "1940", but I don't know the significance of the suffix "A" on the already "AAA" engine number.
The flat-back VEC headlamp (Acme progressed bullet shaped VEC headlamps on at least some 1940 models) and the fact that new Waratahs weren't landed until July 1946 (but which time we might expect post war numbers?)... yes just pre war maybe?
Re the frame number, I told them, "The frame number is usually on the left side of the steering head casting." Anywhere else it might be? A photo would be good.
Cheers
Leon
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Forget the ISDT, here's the 125 Waratah on the home sporting trial front, prewar.
Leon
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From what you have given me I think very early postwar. It all seems to point that way. As it happens my Excelsior equivalent is a 1940 model so more or less last gasp prewar and very handy for comparison.
Supposedly Villiers did their final 9D upgrade in 1939 but when in 1939? War was declared in September which is also around the time the whole motorcycle industry including Villiers started announcing next years ranges and anything new. I'm still ploughing through 'MotorCycling" at the State Library and haven't got to 1939 so haven't an exact date yet but will in due course. 1940 was going to be a big year for Villiers. Lots of changes and upgrades that came and went between the declaration of war in September and the halt of civilian production in April 1940. Hopefully the State Library will clarify a lot of questions.
My Excelsior has the AAA prefix only and the number, 18330 is in the expected prewar position. The frame number is 1073 with the correct prefix for a 1940 Model 0. It is on a flat boss on the left side of the steering head lug just above the down tube. The frame number is always on the special raised boss provided for it. Your auctioneer isn't trying too hard if he can't find it.
The first batch of postwar Excelsior to arrive in Victoria all have AAA****A engine numbering system in the vertical style. We know this from the AOMC engine number cards as they all contain the date of first registration which leads me to believe its the original fitment with the auction bike.
We also know from past investigation that a Waratah /Excelsior was not quite the same as the current model Excelsior . All Excelsior but not quite identical, usually with the odd part from previous years models. I think that is what has happened here, in an effort to start selling bikes again in the early days of peace Excelsior cleaned out their stores and made up a batch of Waratah from what they could find. As I mentioned before, that bike has a prewar frame and forks that were used on other model Excelsior. The frame number would reveal a lot. I think it's genuine and very early postwar.
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Brilliant - very interesting indeed.
I spent last night reading military vehicle forums about the ML James. Incredibly well documented due to the military contracts that governed their production and delivery.
Of interest to us is that MLs were delivered between 1943 and 1945, with frame numbers up to ML8500 - there were contracts to supply 10,000 but the last 1500 were not delivered to the military. ML numbers beyond 8500 ended up (mostly) on the postwar civilian market.
Now here's the interesting bit: All the ML engines (Villiers 9D) were all AAAxxxxA numbers, with xxxxx mostly between about 20000 and about 28000.
The experts there agree about the A suffix on the 9D engines: "Unfortunately records of Villiers 9D engine numbers do not appear to have been retained but it is thought that they were fitted to WD James ML's at random without any particular sequence. The suffix "A" after the engine number was a mark applied by Villiers to signify a post-1939 9D engine with the revised crankcase sealing method (the "gland" seal on the driving side), the "A" signifying "amended"."
They also suggest that, unlike the ML frame numbers, the Villiers engine numbers don't seem to appear in strict order. Nevertheless, the Waratah engine number AAA24024A is right in the middle of the 8000+ engines that went into MLs for the military, do it's likely well into wartime: 1942, 1943 or even 1944?
So, what date for the Waratah?
I've been back and searched wartime newspapers. New Waratah adverts petered out towards the end of 1941 (ignoring Ted Bailey's unchanged long-running advert in "The Propeller" claiming to have New Waratahs on hand), but there was a surprise advert from P&R Williams offering "a few New Waratah Motor Cycles" in December 1942. No mention of the model, but let's guess 9D engines.
The post war, I found an announcement of "limited quantities" of 1945-model Waratahs in September 1945 (all 9D). The "Brand New 1946 Model Waratahs" landed in July 1946.
As I see it, the Waratah for sale could be either a "1942 surprise shipment" landed in December 1942 or a "1945 model" landed in September 1945. I'd guess bikes in both shipments might look pretty prewar, with the "1946 model" having what we call postwar features - new frame, gear change through the tank, etc.
I'll try again for frame number.
Leon
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I think we have it pinned down. All that remains is to find out the frame number to confirm it.
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Any news on that front ?
Time is a ticking away....
Meanwhile there has been a bidding frenzy.
4 bids and $600 already
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No, unfortunately no reply to my message supplying info on the engine date and asking for another look for the frame number (with extra tips about where to look). Since I'm not a buyer, I don't feel that I can push it.
If you look at the bike, there are a lot of bits missing, and plenty of work to be done on the bits that are there. I worry about the front down tube that looks funny in the photos... Anyway, hope someone enthusiastic buys it! It's wartime origins are interesting.
Leon
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Is it the remains of the leg shields on the down tube?
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Looks more like a piece of angle steel welded to the down tube.
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Its not unknown for the front down tube to break on these wee beasties. My Montgomery frame was broken and brazed up just below the head stem lug when I got it and two of my Excelsior frames have repairs to the top tube immediately behind the head lug. I think its a combination of poor fork lubrication and skimping on the head stem lug plus of course making the whole frame as cheaply as possible.
When the forks stiffen up through lack of grease all the road shocks are transmitted through them to the main frame loop which "lozenges" over big bumps with the top tube bending. This eventually finds the frame loop weak point and it fractures there. Usually either the top tube immediately behind the head lug or the down tube immediately below the head lug. This is why I have a complete fixation about fitting modern 'zerk' grease nipples to girder forks and keeping them well greased. Not only do you get a much improved ride you also get better road holding and give the frame a chance of survival. This is just another one of the little subtleties you learn from riding British lightweights.
Given the cost of restoration I think the $600 offered to date is about top dollar for what is on offer.
My only serious question is about the provenance of the offending head stem lug. Was the lug considered part of the forks and provided by the fork maker or was it a separate item sourced by the frame maker? That is, to Excelsiors own design? Anyone know?
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It wasn't unknown for the frames on the bigger bangers to break either !
They should really have had a reinforcing tube inside the weak points - but didn't do so.
It was with a sigh of relief that the industry moved to all welded frames mid 50s (mostly).
In fact, postwar Waratah frames had some of the fixtures welded on, rather than lugged.
Half and half, as it were.
Is there a casting number anyplace on that head lug ?
M&B in Walsall (near Birmingham) supplied a number of the big firms.
And maybe more.
I've got the little "Excelsior the Lost Pioneer" booklet, but it doesn't go into the head lug supplier details !
(nor does any other brand I can think of)
But someone might know...
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I disagree with the 'reinforcing the weak spots' idea. Why spend money, time and effort shoving reinforcing tubes inside other frame tubes when a more thoughtfully designed headstock lug and fitting decent grease nipples would have prevented the whole issue happening in the first place. Not much chance of that happening in British lightweight world was there. Their whole world seemed to revolve around their race to the bottom of cheap and nasty. Price seemed to be the sole criteria for the majority.
My '39' Montgomery is a perfect example. I never appreciated how a firm could use the one rear axle lug for every machine in its range, from a 125 two-stroke to a 1000cc vee-twin. And make same universal lug right or left handed by bashing off the the various unwanted bits to suit either the left or right side of the frame. Or how one could further cheapen a set of pressed steel forks seemingly identical to those on my Excelsior by not fitting the friction dampers used by Excelsior and eliminating all means of link and spindle adjustment with an anti-rattle Thackery washer on the end of each spindle. I won't go on to mention the centre stand made of angle iron nor the saddle mounting using the same angle iron. In the end its just so nasty you have to love it. Its pure runt of the litter territory.
We do digress. Its a pity we don't have the frame number. I'm curious to know whether this Waratah is one of the mis-war imports or immediate post war.
One final note. Leg shields were a standard fitment on the Excelsior version. They don't show up well on the usual catalogue illustrations but they're there. They were attached to the front down tube by the usual clamp on cross pieces. One look at the carburettor position and you can see why Excelsior fitted them.
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OK: it's weird I know but I have made a study of Excelsior frame lugs. Perhaps not as late as the bike in question, but I think the same ideas apply.
Prior to WW1 the firm of R. Walker & Son were makers and wholesalers of frame lugs and fittings. One of their large customers was Excelsior, which at the time was still attached to its origins as Bayliss Thomas. During the war (1917-ish, I recall), RWS purchased Excelsior and I think their ownership carried on until "the end".
Thus "Excelsior" "made their own lugs and fittings" while RWS sold similar lugs to other makers, in the UK and (especially) the colonies. They offered lug sets for a range of bikes, both in the UK and in Australia. In Adelaide, for example, the lightweight set was used by Elliott Payneham for some of their Villiers-powered bikes while J.N. Taylor used the heavyweight set for their V twins. My 1921 Victor Blackburne, made by Taylor, has stamped on the engine plates: "RW&S 6&8 JAP 8 B". My bike uses the 8hp Blackburne twin, while others (like the bikes built by Taylor for Swastika) use 6 and 8hp JAPs.
Unsurprisingly the Australian bikes share many features with the Excelsiors of the period. When Excelsior went to a whacky enormous steering head castings for their big twins around 1921, the same big lugs appeared on some Australian bikes, like Lou Borgelt's personal Swastika JAP.
The RWS heavyweight gearbox lug (or Australian copies of it) appear widely in Australian bikes in the early 1920s.
The Waratah on sale looks like it has a star dropper welded to the front down tube!!
Leon
Edit: I have only a couple of illustrated adverts for R Walker & Son lugs and frame fittings, from 1919 and 1924, both showing lightweight sets. Because sales were wholesale only, adverts don't appear in the usual magazines. Happy to see more if there are any out there!
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Sale has ended.
Price realized $1000
So unless we hear from the new owner, the frame number has eluded us.
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Fingers crossed that the buyer has the combination of expertise, parts and information to restore the bike. The comment about the frame number is a good one, as the old bike movement seems to have drifted into an era of "dating by blatant assertion". Even "identification by blatant assertion" is applicable for Waratahs given the Excelsior origins! At least this one comes with the provenance of an original (or at least very old) tank transfer, and enough remaining original parts with numbers to make an decent guess at the date.
Anyway, here's a "1939 Waratah" from Old Bike Australia a few years back. Or it might be a 1945 Waratah, or maybe a 1941 Excelsior, or....
Cheers
Leon
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Well saved - thankyou.
This is the PowerHouse Museums postwar example, for comparison.
About identical to mine - except my (original) tank has a much finer gold pinstripe.
(as I suspect that 1939 should have ?)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/1948waratahmotorcycle.jpg)
Edit. Hmmm, how do I make the pic appear smaller - no auto resizing here ?
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Their whole world seemed to revolve around their race to the bottom of cheap and nasty. Price seemed to be the sole criteria for the majority.
"Race to the bottom" is 2020's concept. Theirs was more likely to be "a penny saved is a penny earned" which given the financial hardship of the time, made perfect sense. Profit margins were low to non-existent on bikes made purely for commuting, so every little cheese-paring helped with the bottom line.
You want grease nipples? Buy a Brough, McAvoy, Coventry-Eagle etc etc.
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I'm going with "cheap and cheerful". Actually these things only look really cheap 60 years later when the fork spindles have rusted solid in place, and the nose of the saddle and the handlebar levers have 1/4" free play.
So come on R, time to give your little Waratah a wipe over with an oily rag and a light reconditioning. If the original finish shows unambiguously that it was a Waratah from birth I think it's worth leaving it rather than repaint, so just the mechanicals? But not before you dig down to the Healing frame in the shed and get that frame number for me!
Leon
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I've shown this Waratah here before. It came from the original owner.
He said he bought it from P&R Williams with his army demob pay,
and rode it out home. At 30 mph-ish, it took nearly 2 days.
And a few petrol coupons.
Healing frame is out in the sunlight - where is this number
Might need some sandpaper.
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Right side of seat lug. Or somewhere else. Or none at all! Some of the numbers are quite lightly stamped. https://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=6473.msg33253#msg33253