classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => Identify these bikes! => Topic started by: dean66 on August 18, 2013, 02:39:05 AM
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Here is a bike that I brought sometime ago. I need help resolving the identity of this machine. It has grease nipples top and bottom on upside down forks. Front drum brake (missing), villers powered 198cc two stroke. Once i have identity i can see what spares are available and make a plan.
Any help you can provide would be very helpful.
Cheers dean
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Looks like its going to be something along the lines of a Francis Barnett trials or competition bike ?
This is not exactly the same, but something close. ?
This is said to be circa 1950, but its more likely later. Yours too, but not as later ?
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett/images/Francis-Barnett_1950c_NV2.jpg
Very popular in their day, for budding compy riders.
And much more manageable than the big bangers !?
Oddly, it was that fuel tank cap that instantly brought FB to mind.
A lot of bikes back then shared a lot of parts, you may find many common to other makes.
The engine and gearbox in particular, and probably forks and wheels and brakes too.
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At last a proper bike instead of all this Triumph, Norton, BSA etc porridge. Something you can get stuck into without having to worry if the sidelight bulb is original.
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Don't kid yourself, i'ts just another bowl of porridge.
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The front forks are James, the seat is BSA and I think the the frame is Fanny Bee. In other words a perfectly normal brew up of parts that many of us would put together in the 1960's-70's so we could go racing at minimal cost (and even then at zero cost it was still more than we could afford)
Machines like yours can be made into sweet little green-laners that will hold up their head in any company in a range of events. Being a Villiers engine bits are readily available at sane prices and giving it a working lighting system is a doddle.
Give us the frame and engine numbers and we will identify precisely what you have.
You're a lucky man. You have a fun bike that you can run with pocket money.
Cheers,
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The front forks are James,
Not so ?
This is a 1954 Model 64 scrambles model, with 4 speed.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb448/bessybarnett/bike3.jpg
The 3 speed version was circa 1952.
What is not so clear is if the bike being discussed is a stripped-down roadster, or the factory version ?
Anyone got a 1952 pic of the scrambles model ?
AMC owned both FB and James, we should also note.
The competition James became more and more a FB....
Incidentally, these frames were among the first with the new breed of all welded frames.
And very light with it....
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The 4 speed was an Albion box with an extension backwards at the top where the clutch arm is which would have reached the swinging arm spindle. This is the normal 3 speed. YouŽll be lucky to get a 4.00 back tyre in the arm. The primary chaincase will have a wing pattern on a 6E and 4 Ribs front to back on an 8E.
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Fanny Bees are easily identifiable from the frame number, as are Villiers engines. All it takes is for dean66 to supply the relevant numbers and the deed is done. Whatever the Fanny Bee model it turns out to be his bike still has James forks fitted plus a power unit sporting a three speed box.
AMC acquired Francis Barnett in 1947 but didn't get James til 1951 so they were quite different machines in the early 50's before AMC steadily rationalized them. Fanny Bee introduced their swinging arm frame in 1951 whereas the best you would find on a James of that year was plungers. My current classic ride is a plunger sprung 1951 James Captain hence my familiarity with both the forks and gearbox.
Hopefully dean66 will provide the numbers soon and we can put his question to rest.
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Doesn't Deans bike have these forks, minus the rubber gaiters ?
Bit hard to see what going on down there, almost looks like its an artists impression and not the real thing ?
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett/images/Francis-Barnett_1952_advert_p39.jpg
P.S. I'm agreeing about the 3 speed box, if you read what I said.
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If you look at the forks on deans bike you will see the wheel spindle is at the front and about two inches above the bottom of the fork.
Then look at the various Fanny Bee pictures you've cited and you will see the wheel spindle is fully at the bottom end of the fork leg.
Neither make of forks are particularly good. This was in the early days of tele forks and they are basically just pogo sticks with a wheel slung between them. Hydraulic damping on lightweights was still a few years away. The best that could be said about both makes is that they give a better ride than equivalent lightweight girder forks of the day.
I suppose I have to confess that as well as the '51 James I also have the equivalent Fanny Bee in my shed. These forks are very familiar.
Cheers,
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Can't actually find a pic of a James with those forks.
Any particular year or model we should be looking for ?
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Look on Alan Abrahams 'simply wizard' site and you will find them. www.simplywizard.co.uk These particular forks date from the early 50's and were fitted only for a few years. They were one of the first casualties of the AMC rationalization.
James went from pressed steel girders to tubular girders to Dunlop compressed rubber teles to the style we are discussing in quick succession so initially it can be confusing until you get your head around it all.
Cheers,
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HI there, i have found the frame number after stripping paint off the headstock. Number is TTMS 64169B. I am still cleaning up the engine but have found a stamp saying L84 on the rear engine mounting point, no sure about this but will keep looking.
Cheers dean.
Bye the way im not hoping i have something unique here cos im sure it isnt but am doing this as a project with my 14 yo son. Bit of fun and a learning exercise for him.
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Hi Dean.
Good to hear from you again. You'll be pleased to know that the TTMS prefix on the frame number you quote dates from 1953 and definitely identifies it as a Francis Barnett frame. The B suffix after the number was used to show it was painted Blue by the factory. In those days most Fanny Bees were black but some were blue. Yours was a blue one.
The TTMS prefix was used on two 1953 models that shared the same frame. These were the 1953 Falcon series II road bike fitted with an 8E motor (known as the Model 58) or the 1953 Falcon Scrambler competition bike fitted with a 7/4E motor (Model 64).
The engine number runs across the front engine mounting lug and the original 8E road engine used the prefix 387A while the 7/4E comp engine prefix was 374A. I can see you don't have a 7/4E engine fitted because the photo shows your bike has a three speed gearbox. Villiers engines were remarkably interchangeable so don't be surprised if your engine has a different prefix. For a long time it was much cheaper to just buy another secondhand engine from a wreckers than to rebuild a worn out engine so many Villiers powered bikes sport engines that were originally fitted to something else. It makes not an atom of difference to how the bike will run or for buying spare parts.
Cheers,
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Thank you 33 d6, that is fantastic information, i will chase up the engine number and research the two models you identify. i will post to let you know how i get on
thanks again dean
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33d6 You are a useful bloke to know, When my scanner works IŽll send you some photos of our JamesŽ from the 60s Which we cut up to make grass bikes from and the 50s as used in trials. Classic MotorCycle february 2011 has an article on Bill Martin from Devon who rode works James & Barnetts and the photos show some differences to normal bikes. We always used Metal Profiles front forks unless we were desperate. Did you ever look where I posted about Tandons?
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Hi there, number from front engine mount is 946 / 32172 D. Any info much appreciated.
Cheers Dean
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this number would make your engine slightly older than the rest of the machine - an 197cc 8E from a 1951 or 1952 FB Falcon 54/55 model
Cheers
Andy
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Thanks to all for the info, much appreciated.
regards dean
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Absolutely spot on Andy for year and model etc, but a 6E, not an 8E. That was just a slip of the typing finger I'm sure.
And Hi to you, esometisse. I'm out in Oz and things were a little different out here. The go-cart scene started around the mid 50's and the 197cc Villiers engines was ideal for the most popular class. Bikes powered with the 125cc and 150cc engines might survive but not those with the 197 E series. Go-cart racing was extremely popular because old 197 Villiers were so cheap. On top of this Japanese bikes arrived here well before they did in the UK. The first Hondas arrived in '56 and both Yamaha and Suzuki were well established by 1959 so old British lightweights were very much el cheapo crash'n'bash stuff. No wonder they are thin on the ground nowadays.
Later Metal Profiles forks might have been okay. I've never worked on late examples but their early 50's examples were just variations on the James and Fanny Bee pogo sticks. Sun fitted MP's and I made new sliders for my mates Sun Cyclone so got a good look at them. At least with Fanny Bee and James I could get factory manuals and find out how they came apart before I started but getting info on the Metal Profiles forks was a stinker. Finally we got some hand drawn sketches from the VMCC Library which were a great help. I could then pick what was bodges by the previous owner and what was factory original. Sometimes it's silly what you'll do to get a bike back to original specification. I've learnt my lesson.
Cheers,
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Absolutely spot on Andy for year and model etc, but a 6E, not an 8E. That was just a slip of the typing finger I'm sure.
So that 1952 swingram Model 54 suggestion is looking good...
Interesting about those forks.
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett/images/Francis-Barnett_1952_advert_p39.jpg
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Yep, you certainly picked the frame alright. Fanny Bee introduced their swing arm frame in 1952 and I think they got it pretty right straight off. They didn't muck about with plungers first as did a lot of manufacturers.
Dean should be able to get the right forks for his bike as unlike James, Fanny Bee used the the same style of forks across their range for several years so there should be more of them around. As the years went along they did make a sturdier version but early or later versions will bolt straight in.
Cheers,
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I looked on Google Images for Francis Barnett motorcycles and up it came, I clicked on a photo and it was from EMU so I joined EMU so that I could point out to them that several photos were not what they said but they said my Email and password were already in use. It transpires that EMU is another classicmotorcycleforum.
However one of the photos on that site is of a bike with a combined tele/girder sort of fork which I have only ever seen once before ( I have a photo somewhere ) . the tele outers pivot on the bottom crown and the inner sliders come out of the top of the forks to a pair of links like girders. It seems to me that as the front goes down under braking the trail is maintained. Anyone ever seen any and who made them?
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That sounds like a late 40's Ambassador. It was their first attempt at making teles and that design only lasted one year, after that they tended to buy in MP's (Metal Profiles) forks. They were already buying in Webb girders for the bike at the bottom of their range. It was an Ambassador of that era and a prewar Excelsior that got my mate and I back into playing with Villiers stuff
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That confirms it 33d6, the bike they were on was an Ambassador in a museum in the Delamare Forest in Cheshire but that must have been 40 years ago. Was K Don something to do with Ambassador?
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Sure was, Kaye Don started up and owned Ambassador. The survival rate of the early girder forked examples is surprisingly high compared to the later models. They're as tough as old boots and just keep on keeping on. My greatest mileage on one was 500 miles over a long weekend. The bike was fine at the end of it but the rider was shattered. Pressed steel girders and a rigid frame do not make for an armchair ride.
Back to the forks you mention, there ia an example floating around New South Wales. It turns up at the odd rally and friends have sent me photos but I've only seen the photos, not the bike.
Cheers,