classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: Oggers on January 17, 2021, 04:51:13 PM
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Chaps
I have always assumed that a Whitworth spanner and socket set are the default for most British bikes, but I read somewhere Velocettes are different - not sure where or why this should be the case.
Can you advise - as I may be about to buy one - a 54 MSS.
My thanks and regards
Mark
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probably an 'expert' confusing whitworth and BSF which are one and the same.
whitworth/BSF spanners are all you'll need, also a 2/3/4 ba for electrics.
probably your 'expert' used a set of metric mole grips.
go ahead and enjoy your Velo, I believe many do..............
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Nah, you've got that wrong. As every Net expert knows, every British bike used "Whitworth" threads and needs "Whitworth" spanners, except where the clever ones went to B&Q and bought a bag full of cheap metric screws (or "bolts" to those clever ones) and used them where possible.
The really clever ones have a toolbox full of an assortment of spanners etc for the three main threadform families and just reach in and find one that nearly fits. Saves all that hunting for the correct spanner (as those old fuddy-duddies call them)..apparently.
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I bet Rex is another one like me who can tell a spanner size by looking at the fastner?
All mine have a seperate box or rack for each threadform.
but weirdly I still refer to 1/4 whit when I need a 5/16 BSF, so I bought a confused set of spanners marked to suit. ;)
still got some I bought when I was 16.
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still got some I bought when I was 16.
I still have some that my Dad bought when he was about that age.
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The only spanner I remember my dad having was a small side opening adjustable; kept in the kitchen drawer. I may still have it.
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I bet Rex is another one like me who can tell a spanner size by looking at the fastner?
Working with tools it's info that you absorb over time, although if you didn't I'm sure the foreman would have questioned your ability and further employment. Another clue as to "what spanner?" is the bolt head markings.
Much easier in the last twenty years where it's all pretty much been metric though.
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but weirdly I still refer to 1/4 whit when I need a 5/16 BSF, so I bought a confused set of spanners marked to suit. ;)
There's a story there. Pre-WW1, 1/4BSW bolts and nuts all had the hex size of a 1/4W spanner. Then someone realised that there was really no need for such a big hex, saving a lot of metal, so most post-WW1 British fasteners have a hex one size smaller. All 5/16" fasteners for the last 100-odd years (5/16W, 5/16BSF, 5/16BSCy) have a 1/4BSW hexagons.
Because the BSF and BSCy Standards were written long after the BSW Standard, they incorporated a smaller hex in the Standard. Thus the spanner labelled "1/4W / 5/16 BSF".
So if you buy a 1/4W bolt and nut these days it is NOT 1/4BSW. Some wankers like me collect REAL Whitworth nuts - large hex - to go on things like early Sturmey Archer gearbox studs (3/8 BSW), or all the small fasteners on my 1909 Lewis (1/4 BSW).
Leon
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I always understood that it was material saving in WW2 that led to the reduced hex Whit sizes.
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You could be right Rex, perhaps officially. On veteran bikes there were some large size hexagons, even with cycle threads, but mostly they were the smaller size. I'm not sure what year the BSF and BSCy STandards were first issued? There's usually not too many Whitworth fasteners on a motorcycle, but it's incredibly rare to come across a large size hex on anything post-veteran.
Leon
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I worked for an old firm of engineers in the early 60s and had to be careful when getting nut and bolts from the stores. Some of the bins still had large hex mixed in with small. I also was told the change was due to material shortage during the war.
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Understood ref the hex heads, but what about the thread? What is generally used on a Velo - BSW,BSF or BSC? or all 3!
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all three depending on application etc
but the spanner sizes are all the same, which was your original worry?
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I am allowed another question surely? I understood that in general, BSF was used on most stuff....
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you are correct.
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With an equal, if not greater quantity of BSCy for good measure. The only BSW I can recall on my old MAC was the cylinder base studs, but there were probably others.
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A thread pitch gauge is the restorer's friend!
Leon
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And a bolt size gauge is useful too.
My local bolt supplier gave me this, as a freeby.
Its primarily for metric and UNF/UNC, but just sorting those out helps sometimes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zgz7Q1Y/Bolt-gauge.jpg)
A reference collection of nuts & bolts helps sometimes too..
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Handy for very late BSA/Triumphs and Japs/Continentals but not much use for anything older in our spheres of interest.
Only ever encountered UNC on one bike and that was a Springfield Indian.
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I'm restoring a 1930s Francis Barnett Black Hawk with Royal Enfield hubs and was supprised to find the spindles on both are 7/16 unf. Perhaps it was done to ensure the correct nuts were used. I would have thought that unf was quite rare in the 30s.
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My big 30s Enfield cush hub has 11/16 Cycle thread nuts.
Try finding those in the local hardware !
I'd suspect your axle has been remade ?
A smaller axle I had remade was 26 tpi British Standard Cycle thread
(Or CEI, before it was renamed in the late 1940s)
For Rex, depends on the variety of your herd.
Commandos are UNF in the cycleparts.
This from W. Marples Sheffield for checking diam sizes of BS (British Standard) bolts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26NmK9MB/Bolt-size-W.jpg)
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I too though they may had been remade but they're not from the same bike and looked to be coated with vintage muck.
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As a rough guide for bolt size I use my AF spanners as calipers and use a few known BSF screws/bolts of the common sizes to compare and contrast in order to ascertain if it is BSW or something else.
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I am allowed another question surely? I understood that in general, BSF was used on most stuff....
It depends what you mean by "most". BSW was generally used for threads into softer material line aluminium alloy eg barrel studs. Most British manufacturers tended towards Cycle rather than BSF although Velos used more BSF for some reason. My Francis Barnett uses almost all Cycle including the unusual 1/2" 26 tpi version (more often 20 tpi). Nortons were almost exclusively Cycle till the Commando when they then had an unholy mix of Cycle, BSW. UNC and UNF. UNF and Cycle are just close enough (28 tpi / 26 tpi) that it's easy to start the wrong nut and it's only when one or both parts are wrecked that the error becomes clear.....
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For Rex, depends on the variety of your herd.
Commandos are UNF in the cycleparts.
As I said earlier, late Triumphs and BSAs use UNF too, but I was talking of UNC specifically. Did the Unified changeover get completed before Tri/BSA went belly up, and did some UNC fasteners make it onto the later bikes? Who knows?
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Ariel two strokes were the first to use UNF nut and boltery, drove me nuts as a teenager trying to dismantle one,
Is Oggers confusing thread from with head size? lots of examples of smaller /larger spanner sizes as would be normally found.
whitworth and UNC I always understood to be the same,unless you are an ultra purist.
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1/4 Whit and 1/4 UNC seem to be sold by some suppliers as being the same.
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Is Oggers confusing thread from with head size?
No he's not.
BSW=BSF (head size) - understood
BSW does not equal BSF (thread) - also understood
Question answered by Ian - Velos use more BSF than others - many thanks
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Ariel two strokes were the first to use UNF nut and boltery, drove me nuts as a teenager trying to dismantle one,
Yes, I rebuilt one a few years back and had to resuscitate all my A/F spanners that I thought I'd never need again.......
Of course the previous owner had decided to use metric gutter bolts all over the place. Some people shouldn't be allowed near a motorcycle.
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Velos use more BSF than others - many thanks
thats because they were cheap skates, always on the verge of bankruptcy, I'm not a Velofan, never have been, worked on LE Velos for met police though and they were nearly all 1/4 BSF.
There is a reason for the use of 26tpi cycle and that is because fine threads are less inclined to vibrate loose.
It is rumoured that spanner size is irrelevant to Velo owners as they use the famous hammertite mole grips, one size fits all. ;D ;D ;D
mostly I used a gas axe on the ones I scrapped. :o :o
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thats because they were cheap skates, always on the verge of bankruptcy, I'm not a Velofan, never have been, worked on LE Velos for met police though and they were nearly all 1/4 BSF.
There is a reason for the use of 26tpi cycle and that is because fine threads are less inclined to vibrate loose.
It is rumoured that spanner size is irrelevant to Velo owners as they use the famous hammertite mole grips, one size fits all. ;D ;D ;D
mostly I used a gas axe on the ones I scrapped.
But if you built the bike right in the first place, then arguably there is no need for BSC threads to keep other poorly designed, shaking contraptions from falling apart? I tend to believe Veloce designed it pretty much right in the first place, and used the appropriate fasteners.
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I don’t see what the complication is. Three sets of thread gauges, Whitworth, SAE and metric and you can measure nearly every thread you come across. It was a pleasant evening’s job to make my BA screw checking plate, the Whitworth and SAE gauges were my grandfathers and fathers respectively (thread gauges will last several life times) and I actually bought the metric one some thirty odd years ago.
Then you’ll have to start accumulating reference books so you can very nearly identify most threads you come across. Used ones are fine because publishers are reluctant to include obsolete thread details in new books. You can never have too many thread references. You never will know all threads because they keep changing them and no one ever mentions the oddball sizes that Indian and Douglas used for example.
Treat every thread as a mystery and you’ll be fine.
Buy your Whitworth spanners for the Vélo but more importantly buy the workshop manual first. Second purchase after the manual should be the special Vélo clutch pin spanner and a 1/4” jobbers drill from which you make a clutch adjusting tool. Whitworth spanners are only needed once you have read the manual.
Keep the MSS bog standard and you will have a good touring machine that will take you anywhere.
Rant over.
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Treat every thread as a mystery and you’ll be fine.
What an eloquently-phrased piece of advice! I love a good thread, and there's nothing more disappointing than to find a 1/4-20 screw in a 1/4-22 tank fitting, or a 1/4-28 cap-head screw in a 1903 bronze crankcase where a 1/4-24 raised-countersunk screw should go. Next time a thread goes tight after the first turn, stop and find out why!
Would you believe that SAE spanners are required for pre-WW1 FN motorcycles made in Belgium? ALL the hexagons are AF, and NOT ONE THREAD on the bike is metric!!
Leon
Leon
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I would suspect that in reality FN (being a very large industrial manufacturer) made it's own !"£%^% threads and fasteners which just happen to fit the SAE spanner sizes.
As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.
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BSA loved the occasional odd thread as well.
I tend to believe Veloce designed it pretty much right in the first place, and used the appropriate fasteners.
So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?
That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.
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So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?
That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.
Nope - flawed logic there chum. Not what I said and your statement does not follow from it.
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I must admit I was less than impressed by many of the design features on a Venom I had for a couple of years. The infamous clutch which was touted as being like that to achieve narrower crankcases was in fact just a hangover from the 2 strokes. Nice bike to ride although I don't think it was any faster than my current ES2. And the cooking A10 that replaced the Velo in my shed was faster and IMO handled better. It was a bit heavy though.
That saying about Velos needing to be owned by engineers is because they didn't finish designing them at the factory.
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So every other motorcycle manufacturer was wrong in the reason for their choice of fastener, and only Velocette were right?
That fits in with the average attitude of the keen Velocette owner.
Nope - flawed logic there chum. Not what I said and your statement does not follow from it.
Off you pop then and buy the bike............ chum.
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The infamous clutch
I've heard that expression a lot over the years. Why is it "infamous"? It's unique method of adjustment? It's performance? I'd far rather strip/renew/adjust a Velo clutch than many other designs. All you need is the components in good condition and to follow the manual.
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When I worked for a short while at Arthur Wheelers place he showed me the trick of setting one up, I still have the little gadjet he made for me; that was on a 350 MAC,the one with the enclosure on it, I have to say it was one of the sweetest 350s I have ever ridden.
I still wouldn't want one. never been a Velo fan,can't stand yesterdays dinner in my beard.
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As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.
When you think about it, until Mr Whitworth started a trend of standardizing threads, just about EVERY early manufacturer of anything made up their own thread types.
This means that there are about 30 threadforms just for Swiss watches, and folks like Indian and Triumph and Harley Davidson used their own thread types.
And other manufacturers ditto - as FN has just been quoted.
It could be interesting to know when the first threaded fasteners were used ?
Bit of a primer https://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw2.htm
We diverge, muchly.
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The infamous clutch
I've heard that expression a lot over the years. Why is it "infamous"? It's unique method of adjustment? It's performance? I'd far rather strip/renew/adjust a Velo clutch than many other designs. All you need is the components in good condition and to follow the manual.
It's infamous because as you say it's unique therefore people don't understand it. The method of adjusting "till it just doesn't slip when turning over with the kickstart" is hit and miss to say the least. And if you look at the Velo message group, getting all the components in good condition is far from easy especially as lots of currently available parts are not quite right dimensionally.
Having said that my Venom was OK, I got the clutch working well after lots of fiddling and it was nice to ride. But it never felt like anything special to me though I admit it looked good.
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The curse of pattern parts strikes again.
I recall one quality aspect of my old MAC was the ability to adjust the mesh of the idler gear with the crankshaft and cam gears, and that's after Velocette changed the angle of the gear teeth by something like 1/2' to reduce noise. Small detail improvements.
Sheer quality compared to the much-admired Morini V-twin which everyone gasps over, with it's shit and undersized cam-drive belt that would shame a desk-top printer with it's puny dimensions and requirement for regular replacement.
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As late as the 1970s the postal equipment firm Pitney-Bowes in the UK was using it's own thread forms on it's franking machines.
Wotcha.
The franking machines made by Pitney-Bowes were carried around in specially made boxes so that they didn't get damaged. Any time the postage rate got altered in the budget, the franking machines would have to be altered accordingly.
What's this got to do with motorcycles ? - - well, a lot of those boxes ended up being sold for a couple of quid each at radio / computer / electronics fairs etc. . . . and they make wonderful little top boxes for smaller motorcycles, as well as useful tool boxes and such like. I've still got a few of 'em in regular use.
(https://i.ibb.co/bWdMDmz/DSCN3088.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ssv4GyR)
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Mention of the dreaded Whitworth spanners rings a bell.....I ve got to do some work on the Gardner engine in my old crane ,and I d forgotten its all BSF threads ...need to be very careful not to lose a nut or bolt ,because unlike old bikes ,bigger BSF thread stuff is impossible to find in Oz.......Unlike a bike ,the old crane has to keep going,as Ive sold the land and included an agreement to clear up all the scrap laying about......I did about half before Christmas ,and Im so sick of the whole thing ,I d like to toss it in...but I cant without costing me heaps.......One slightly less depressing aspect is the price of steel scrap is well up ,and just scrapping an old crane returned some $4000.
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The franking machines made by Pitney-Bowes were carried around in specially made boxes so that they didn't get damaged. Any time the postage rate got altered in the budget, the franking machines would have to be altered accordingly.
That was the so-called "metered mail" where firms who posted out a lot of stuff could frank the mail themselves rather than go and buy a few thousand stamps a week. I was meaning this old bugger and it's derivatives as used in sorting offices of the past-
https://postalmuseum.si.edu/object/npm_1992.2002.43
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That was the so-called "metered mail" where firms who posted out a lot of stuff could frank the mail themselves rather than go and buy a few thousand stamps a week. I was meaning this old bugger and it's derivatives as used in sorting offices of the past-
https://postalmuseum.si.edu/object/npm_1992.2002.43
Wotcha.
Dimensions 42 x 35 x 26 in
That would make for a bloody big top box. :)
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Good solid high grade cast iron, too. Put that in your top box and you'd be pulling wheelies all day...