classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: DELONSTAINWALL on April 18, 2021, 11:29:02 PM
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Hi Team,
I have a Excelsior plunger not complete and would like to know if the chassis number is correct? Please see attached picture. it looks like DS1993. I DONT THINK IT IS CORRECT.
Kind Regards.
DS
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Delon, it’s an absolutely correct number identifying a 1950 Excelsior 125cc Universal.
Excelsior frames of the period all look the same but there are minute differences between them that drive you nuts. They either improved them slightly from year to year or there are slight differences to accommodate the various engines. At that time Excelsior used both their own make and Villiers engines all of varying capacities. Plus of course, this is the time when they introduced their own 250cc twin two stroke power unit. The Villiers powered variants are the most common survivors by far.
Have fun,
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Thank you 33d6 for your quick reply.
Is there any other model or make that used the same parts or similar?
is there a parts list with illustrations available to buy?
what sot of rims did they use as i will need to find them Please.
Regards,
DS
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Lets see if this will display here. Nope, have to click it ?
https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-owners/images/Excelsior-1950-125cc-Universal-VDo-01.jpg (https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-owners/images/Excelsior-1950-125cc-Universal-VDo-01.jpg)
My little Excelsior/Waratah is a couple of years earlier (and has girder forks/rigid)
Its wheels are WM1 x 19 36 spoke and use 2.75 x 19 tyres.
I'd think there would be a lot of these about - if you can find who has a stash of them.
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A possible candidate for a front wheel ?
I'd have said my front drum is more like a 4" brake, but don't know what tele forked models used.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VILLIERS-FRONT-WHEEL-FRANCIS-BARNETT-JAMES-EXCELSIOR-PARTS-VINTAGE-MOTORCYCLE/164505842186
Not the least expensive seller on the planet ...
The National Motorcycle Museum sells photocopy parts books and owners books.
Looks like they have a 1950 and 51 parts book, not illustrated though.
https://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/product/excelsior-british-1950-to-1951-spare-parts-manual-models-125cc-u1-u2-197cc-r1-r2-250cc-tt1-not-illus-anson602/
You'll have to become an expert on what fits what ?!! And soon will be ...
Hopethishelps.
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R thank you for providing the eBay site thou seller is expensive.
Is there a place i could go to to find out the history of my Excelsior universal plunger ID: DS/1993?
I have managed to find the front and rear wheels please see attached photos. Who can I go to to get them FIXED in Melbourne.
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That was quick !
At least one of those wheels looks a bit bantam-ish ?
Always a good source of common stuff.
How fixed do you want them to get. ?
Generally, the last thing you want to do with a long term project is to buy new tyres early on.
If you do it now, by the time the rest of it is done, they may be (well past) their use by date.
If they still pump up, you can use them to move it about the workshop, as is ?.
If you have forks and suspension bits ...
At least we know you are in Oz, so someone local may be able to assist.
I've always just accepted that the early history may be long gone and irretrievable,
but you never know. Good luck.
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P.S. A good source of info on that era used to be Modak Motorcycles, in Elizabeth St.
David was a goldmine of info on all things motorcycling in Melbourne, (and parts)
but I think he has gone online sales only these days, so may not be so available. ?
He may well have a lot of the small stuff you'll need ?
This is way better than jamming metric bolts into imperial holes ...
https://talesofbrickandmortar.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/modak37of43.jpg
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I would like to get the rims and spoke reset and painted. If I can find a person to do this I will also get the frame and mudguards painted as well. The catch is it has to be in Melbourne.
Thank you R for your response.
DS
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To echo what's been said above, I wouldn't go too far into paint chrome and tyres when you're still at any early stage in the resto.
Do a dry build up to the engine running stage then for for the new tyres and bling.
It does look like a Bantam hub though, and you'd need to check the fit and alignment of that before any respoking or whatever.
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Thank you to all members for your valuable information and knowledge. Yes, a dry build is what I will do first to check the fit and alignment of engine and rear wheel.
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Id suggest you leave the wheels till last ,as the cost of professional wheelbuilding can be staggering.......There are a couple of suppliers in England of wheel bits,and with a new set of spokes and rim ,doing the wheels isnt difficult......provided you havent pulled them to bits 10 years previously and forgotten all the details.....take many pictures of spoke arrangements ,etc.
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Hi Team, hoping you can provide me with some of your valuable knowledge. I have had this fuel tank for some time now and I must have brought it at a swap meet though cannot remember. As I am gathering parts for my 1950 Excelsior Universal Plunger 125cc this fuel tank fits well and all hole's line up to the frame.
The question I have is, I don't believe this tank is from the 1950 Excelsior Universal Plunger 125cc as it has the a gear changing leaver. I'll be interested to know witch year and motel this tank came out of?
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That is a Jame ML tank and gear change. These are highly sought after in some parts of the world. You will definitely get your money back on that one.
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Thanks 33d6 for letting me know that it was out of the James ML. I also have the Villiers engine that I think it is a 9D 125cc in full working order missing the mufflers. Not sure what I paid for the tank or the 9d engine. Cheers Delon
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9D engines are easy to identify. The appropriate 9D engine for that James ML tank will have an engine number prefix 539. The postwar 9D engine number is located on the gearbox end plate.
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Hi Team hoping you can identify this Excelsior. Ill like to know what year and model number. I think it is from the 1930s
Thanks!!!!!
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Gearbox aside, it's very much the same as one of the Waratah (Excelsior) machines we discussed elsewhere: http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.msg30060#msg30060
Leon
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Yes that gearbox is a curiousity.
You'd rather expect it to have a Burman.
A possible match is this 1936 Pioneer 148cc example.
https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2010-04/29/8083012-1-1.jpg
Note that your headlamp looks earlier too ?
Anyone got a brochure pic ?
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It’s simple Delon, tell us the frame number. Numbers always tell the story. Showing photos and asking for guesses is unnecessary when the frame number tells all.
Don’t be surprised if it’s on the headstock behind the headlamp.
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I will do my best when I get home to provide a frame ID.
Could it be an Excelsior Pioneer 148cc E1? https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-1935/Excelsior-1935-148cc-E1-Cat-EML.htm
Thanks for letting me know 33d6.
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Having issues from my end with downloading the pitchers will do when I resolve it. The frame number is 11/619 and the engine number is CUXF. Hope that help 33d6.
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Please read the frame number again. You have misread something somewhere.
The engine number prefix CUXF identifies a Mk 15C which is a single exhaust port economy version of the regular twin port 150cc Mk 12C. They are otherwise identical except for a minor difference in the carburettor jetting.
The single exhaust port affords a cheaper single pipe exhaust system so good for the motorcycle factories and easier for today’s restorers.
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Please see attached photos of frame and engine ID.
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You know, 11/619 and 619/11 read the same (almost) no matter which way up you read them.
Bonhams have this 1936 - as Frame no. C11091 Engine no CUXF1223
(https://images1.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2011-03/23/8286577-4-1.jpg&width=640&height=480&autosizefit=1)
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Hi again Delon,
Photos aren’t very helpful. They are never as good as looking at the original.
Excelsior frame numbers of that period always started with a letter. Does it start with a poorly stamped H or a J? I suspect either H1 or J1 but not 11.
Have a very careful look and scrape and clean around the whole number to make sure.
Remember that eventually you will want to get the bike registered so you can ride it on the road and you store up trouble for yourself if you quote a wrong frame number.
Cheers,
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Amazing! Bonhams very nearly got it right! That is a not-quite-right 1933 150cc "Empire". The frame number should read C.1.1091 which may sound pedantic but C identifies the year, 1 identifies the particular model in the Excelsior lineup and the final 1091 is the actual frame number. The . or / used on an Excelsior frame number are relevant. That bike came in three versions, the C.1, the C.V.1 and the C.E.1. The differences mainly revolve around the electrics as manufacturers tried to improve on ordinary Villiers direct lighting. A bit diffficult with 1930's electrical gear.
The C.1 with coil ignition and all the Lucas electrical gubbins that entails, C.V.1 with regular Villiers flywheel magneto and direct lighting and finally the C.E.1 with Villiers flywheel magneto ignition but keeping the Lucas dynamo set up of the C.! for lighting only. All weird and wonderful but making the best of the electrics of the day.
On the whole I'd be quite happy to ride the Bonham bike as is but I'd be quietly looking out for the correct Mk12C twin port engine and then fitting an accurate exhaust system. That one is a shocker. In 1933 Excelsior not only fitted the twin port Mk12C but also made their own rather pretty fish tail silencers as well. The C.V.1 version with modern electronics to sort out the lighting issues is the way to go. It's frustrating to see a bike so well done in parts but so sloppy in others.
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A friend of mine wants $1700 if he is to part with it. What should I pay? it is 95% complete.
Thanks Team
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Is this the one you showed just above.
(http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6195.0;attach=7778;image)
I don't think $1700 is an outrageous asking price, it does look fairly complete-ish.
Especially with that headlamp - that could be worth the asking price ??
Now asking prices are bit like a piece of string, but offer $1699
You've beaten him down, and he got nearly what he asked !
Honour is satisfied. ??
BUT, do you really need another one though ....
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Everyone needs another one. Like guitars, you can never have too many.
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For a comparison this Acme is asking $6k
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/uZwAAOSwXxJgleWQ/s-l1600.jpg
Possibly more complete - esp the exhausts.
And Dealer badge
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xGoAAOSw53ZgleWI/s-l1600.jpg
That would/should buy a lot of guitars !
Like motorcycles, you can only use one at a time ...
P.S. I would also venture to respectfully suggest that that is quite expensive.
These are only small bikes, with limited avenues for use ?
Collectable as they may be...
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I agree. I think that price is absolutely dippy but you only have to find one buyer don’t you. As for usability I suppose that all depends on how you want to use a bike doesn’t it.
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Thought I let you know that I have done the deal. It will be delivered to me in 3 weeks. I will be abele give you further information on the frame number. This was a very rare find in Vic that I could not miss out on. I would have regretted if I didn't get it. R, REX. 33D6 you are all correct.
Another TOY to add to my collection. I will be counting on your knowledge, experience advise when I go to restore my Excelsior 1930s.
Cheers to all.
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Hi Team, Where can I find a manual for 1935 Excelsior Pioneer any help will be greatly appreciated.
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??? Not sure if this is right for your year, and your model may be only one of many covered in there.
But anything is better than nothing, and some of it would be common ...
https://www.nationalmotorcyclemuseum.co.uk/product/excelsior-british-1933-to-1934-instruction-manual-covers-all-models-good-manual-rigel528/
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There is no workshop manual as such. One collects information from the separate makers of each component. British makers rarely wrote decent workshop manuals for the bikes they sold. That why Haynes were so successful in later days.
In the days when Britain had lots of factories and made things one learnt the general principles of all things mechanical and broadly knew what to do anyway. It was much like mobile phones today. Who has a manual for their phone? You just ask a mate if you have an issue. It was the same for anything mechanical back then.
Don’t worry Delon, if you have a copy of “The Villiers Engine” by BE Browning you have the engine and lighting covered. Meanwhile just buy yourself a dozen ordinary 1/4” BSF straight grease nipples and a proper grease gun so you can grease the thing properly after replacing those nasty original pointy things British factories fitted.
Clean it but DON’T pull it apart until we’ve carefully examined it.
Cheers,
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. British makers rarely wrote decent workshop manuals for the bikes they sold. That why Haynes were so successful in later days.
I can't go along with that generalisation. The bigger factories like Triumph, BSA, Norton, RE etc produced very detailed workshop manuals or "service sheets", and for those who didn't want to spring for them there were the Pitman (and similar) pocket manuals.
The minor factories supplying Villiers-powered commuter lightweights probably wouldn't have offered much more an owner's handbook giving the basics, but then the power unit was the main thing to need servicing and there was lots of info on them.
Haynes produced photo-strip manuals which was innovative at the time, something they presumably learnt from the "Motorcycle scooter and three wheeler mechanics" magazine's monthly engine strip.
"One pic is worth a thousand words" and all that.
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The bigger factories like Triumph, BSA, Norton, RE etc produced very detailed workshop manuals or "service sheets",
I'd only half agree with that statement Rex.
Norton manuals have an all too common "return part to maker" for that stage of repairs.
So all the complicated or important bits are omitted !!
Haynes etc also frequently don't explain the complicated bits sufficiently enough for a satisfactory outcome. ?
Crank regrinds in particular often didn't include the all important radius grinding details - so reground cranks often broke.
And cam or follower grinding details - forget it ....
And pistons were often only covered in a cursory manner.
So various types requiring differing clearances were completely ignored.
Everything seemed to assume you were using utterly stock parts in pristine condition.
???
I'd think that whatever Excelsior offered was better than nothing.
A complete workshop manual it may not be though ...
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We'll have to disagree then Rex.
Very few if any British motorcycle factory put out any sort of decent workshop manual before WWII. Owners hand books and spare parts lists, yes. These were good for basic riding maintenance but nothing further. The situation was so poor that the weekly magazine "Motor Cycling" published a series of articles beginning July 1940 and running through to March or so 1941 on servicing all the makes of WD motorcycles. Engines, gearboxes and electrics. They were all then collated and put together into a single official Services publication, "Servicing of W.D. Motor Cycles. It demonstrates the extent of the problem when a weekly magazine has to step in.
I have in front of me the local edition of the above put out by H.Q. Allied Land Forces, S.W. Pacific Area, June 1943. It's a direct copy of the British forces publication of course so only contains British bikes, no Harley Davidson or Indian.
All this led to a marked improvement in service sheets and the like as you say but all post war after they had learnt from wartime experience. You'll find very little factory information published back in the 1920;s and 30's. Then it was all magazine articles or specialist press like Pitmans or Newnes. You really have to know where to look to find what you want.
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OK, I misunderstood the post. I was thinking of post-war bikes really.
Seems like things have gone full-circle, as again decent manuals are rare/impossible to find for newish bikes and cars. :'(
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Hi just received the Excelsior 1930s Pioneer or Empire. It took a while to get to me due to the lockdowns. I have checked the frame number and it is FI/619. 33d6 you were correct about there being a letter in front. The head lamp is a Villiers VEC battery operated
So what is this motorbike?
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Hi Delon,
Your bike very definitely is a 1936 Excelsior "Pioneer". That frame number, F1/619 absolutely confirms it. I have my 1936 Excelsior catalogue open in front of me and with the exception of your orphan replacement gearbox it is your bike to a 'tee'.
Excelsior listed the F.1, the F.D.1 and F.X.1 for 1936. The F.! was the base model with single port Mk15C engine and direct lighting. The dry battery for the parking light resides in the headlight behind the reflector. The other two are just fancier versions of your machine. As luck has it the basic electrics and single exhaust pipe make restorsation that much easier and cheaper than having one of the fancier versions with all the bells and whistles.
You can buy yourself a copy of the 1936 Excelsior catalogue on line from the National Motorcycle Museum www.thenmm.co.uk in the UK. Quite cheap and then you have a few pictures to work from.
Cheers,
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My little just postwar Excelsior/Waratah 125cc also has that battery-in-the-headlamp feature.
This is so you can switch it to the DIM position (DIM is for PARK !!) and show a park lamp in the headlamp (and taillamp. ?).
This is for some law which has faded into obscurity ? (you needed to show a light when parked)
In the FULL position on the headlamp switch, you have the normal High/Low on the handlebar dipswitch.
The bulbs in the headlamp for this were powered by AC from the flywheel generator. They are not big wattages by any means !!
There was an option with some (postwar) Excelsiors to also have a leadacid battery, and for a rectifier to provide a trickle charge to the battery
so you had plenty of herbs for that parking light. I don't think this gave you DC power for the headlamp ??
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It did give you DC power for headlights R but it was a rather basic system that failed to keep the battery charged on a long night run. In time Villiers did address this but it’s all moot nowadays as with a modern regulator/rectifier and LED lights all these problems are a thing of the past.
Nowadays Villiers lighting can be as basic or sophisticated as you want.
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Seems a little strange that there could be a surplus of AC power, and a shortage of DC ??
Even if that 'surplus' was only a few watts ...
The joys of inefficient half wave selenium rectifiers ?? (compared to the silicon type that followed)
The simplicity of that AC power/ lighting system has to be admired.
Something that even LED lighting cannot compare with.
Even if the lights fade away as the rpms decrease ... !!
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The experience and knowledge that I gain from you all is fantastic. Thank you, R and 33d6 and the rest of you who have replied.
The rear mudguard below the number plate has got white reflective paint. Could this be because it was used during the WW2?
What I have also noticed is that there is a lever type throttle rather that a twist grip. It looks like throttle cable gets pulled in a straight line. This looks to be working fine as the carburettor seams to open and close. Is this stranded for this Pioneer.
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That was the std throttle in the 1920s.
Someone may have stuck with it into the 1930s.
Don't think they would have been sold like that by then. ?
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Villiers provided a lever throttle as standard on their engines right up to about 1950 but as they were way past their use by date by then and very unfashionable the bike manufacturers swapped them for twist grip throttles.
Your 1936 Pioneer has a lever throttle as standard. You can see it in the catalogue picture.
As you have a hand gear change and no idle circuit in the carburettor you will find the lever throttle more convenient to use than a modern twist grip that shuts off every time you take your hand off it. Also remember you have no indicators so have to give hand signals.
Lever throttles have their advantages.
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Most of the twist grips I've had were fitted with a tightening screw so that the throttle didn't snap shut.
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Yes, Standard Amal road bike twistgrips did have a friction adjuster but “ racing” bikes have been required to have automatic shut off when released for 60-70 years and how many road bikes have the function now? Most people are unfamiliar with the idea nowadays.
Riders reaction to a lever throttle can be quite strange. Some find them quite daunting. Why, I don’t know. I find them good for a really relaxed ride myself. It’s not as if the bikes are capable of a 100mph Isle of Man TT lap. Horses for courses I suppose.
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Just about to start on my long adventure of restoring my Excelsior 1936 148 c.c. Pioneer chassis No F1/619. As per all the pictures and articles on Google this bike comes with a Burman Q type gearbox, my one comes with an albino 3 speed. I also have a leaver type throttle and a triangular shaped tool box. Why are the British made Australian bikes different?
The obvious parts that are not in working order are brake, clutch, accelerator cabals. York spring, kick start spring and a Dunlop saddle. Are any of these parts available? Any contacts details will be appreciated.
Thank you 33d6 for coming by my place and for the chat.
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Any 'variances' with catalog fittings may be down to the previous owner !!
'Making do' is a long held practice amongst owners of economy machines ?
And not so economy really.
An Albino gearbox eh ?
Do you have any of the old cables as a guide.
Often the fittings are fairly standard, so maybe one from something else may be able to be adapted.
Quite a selection available on fleabay.
And also 'universal' kits, which supply cable which can be made up with the original fittings.
A possible source of bits is Modak Motorcycles in Melbourne.
He is mail order only these days - but must have an enormous stock of all sorts of bits,
well worth a try. ?
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I think he means Albion R, but hey, you're talking to the guy who had to phone in a sighting of an albino Wallaby blocking the road on Halloween night. The emergency operator took some persuading...
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Mark M and R please see photos.
Should I keep the Albion (MW118) (not sure what this number is) gearbox on my Excelsior Pioneer or replace it with the original Burman Q type?
I have decided to make up the cabals as I am able use the original fittings. Many years back I made up the brake cables for my 1968 Raleigh Chopper Bike.
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Is the Albion in good working order, and fits properly in there. ?
There's the answer then !
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush, as they used to say.
You could spend years looking for the correct Burman - and gain nothing.
Or find one tomorrow...
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Del, R has it exactly. If it works, use the Albion and keep looking if total originality is important. Albion boxes were probably more numerous than Burman at the time, the internal components are common across many boxes so spares are out there. I'm not sure about availability for the Burman? The main differences between these boxes are usually the cases themselves. The number stamped on the top is unique to the box. The letter prefix identifies the box type and manufacturing batch and the digits are it's unique number. Unfortunately there appears to be no 'master' record of which manufacturers were supplied with what boxes so comparing different numbers in survivors is sometimes the only way. (There is a list on the web of post-War box codes as fitted to Indian badged RE models but it is not completely correct.)
REgards, Mark
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Thanks Mark M and R for your honest opinion. Yes, the Albion fits and works perfectly.
I have decided to go with the original colour for this Excelsior 1936 148 CC. Pioneer which is black. Does anyone know witch black shade I should use?
I am going to start from the front of the bike and work my way to the back by dismantling all parts, then check that all parts are in working order if not get replacement parts. Once I am satisfied, I will then start on the paint work. As I am doing this myself, I will be taking my time to get the paint work done well.
Some of you may have other ways of approaching this project. Please let me know?
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Does anyone know which black shade I should use?
!!
I went to my paint supplier, and said I want the blackest black you can supply.
So no red blue green yellow grey white or pink additives.
They complied, and it is a lovely deep black.
(why would anything ever be otherwise, you may wonder ??).
As to the paint type, well thats a matter for what your painter or you can do, and have a booth for.
Some of these modern brews are highly toxic, to painter or neighbours, so choose wisely.
Most of the newer types require a clearcoat, which looks rather wrong on old machinery.
My old Waratah had a fairly thin wash of black enamel over it, so quality paint wasn't on the agenda back then...
Some of you may have other ways of approaching this project. Please let me know?
I don't think it makes any difference if you go front-to-back, top-to-bottom, inside out or upside down,
as long as you are methodical, take photos of EVERYTHING (unless you have a photographic memory)
and label and bag all nuts and bolts in their categories, then nothing can go wrong. (!).
I think your bike is a little too far gone to be an 'original paint' machine, but you might want to just go through it mechanically
and take it for a ride before you start applying a new coat of paint and erase all that history ??
I like using phosphoric acid to remove that rusty look (panel beaters supply shops etc)(its in coca cola, so not exactly hazardous to life or limb)
(although keep away from eyes and clothes) and then use linseed oil to preserve/protect it.
You see all these sparkling new bikes at rallies, but its the survivors that get the interest ....
(http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6195.0;attach=7777;image)
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On my Fanny B, I've only painted what I've repaired. The rest is as original, I might give it a wipe over with an oily rag to preserve the metal, I don't fancy giving it a coat of varnish as some have suggested.
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I'd agree with that. A coat of varnish over rust is a bit too "Fast and Loud" and an oily rag is fine.
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Hi Team, I have stripped off the paint and rust from some Parts and I am having a small issue with keeping the stripped bare metal parts from rusting prior to starting my painting. Am I missing a step? Or not doing it correct?
The method I used is soaking the parts in Vinegar for a few days and cleaning them off with a wire brush. I then wash the stripped parts in a soapy water and dry them. As the weather is not the best, I do not want to start the painting just yet.
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I've not used vinegar, but after washing with soapy water try rinsing the parts in really hot water, drying them with a towel, then wiping them over with a rag soaked (wet) in methylated spirit. The meths will dissolve any residual water. Of course from that point on you'll need to keep the parts warm and dry until you paint them. A light dust of etch primer would keep rust under control. I use Wattyl Super Etch Industrial Primer, black. Touch dry in 5 minutes.
Leon
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Panel beaters use phosphoric acid on the steel prior to painting.
This protection can last for months, but painting is best done as soon as the acid has been rinsed off and the steel is good and dry.
Phos acid is one of the active ingredients in coca cola, so its not exactly hazardous to life and limb.
Best kept away from eyes and clothes though...
Don't dilute down too far though, I find its best used really concentrated, and then sandpaper off for a smooth rust free finish.
There is no substitute for this product ?
It should leave the steel clean and shiny and metal-like, none of this black coloured stuff that weaker varieties use.
Dulux used to supply it as Deoxidine, but many suppliers of it these days.
Don't pay too much, its only a powder mixed into water.
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1468/1084/products/image_35496911_1024x1024.jpg?v=1567753959[img]http://[img][https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1468/1084/products/image_35496911_1024x1024.jpg?v=1567753959)