classic motorcycle forum
Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: 33d6 on July 08, 2021, 05:41:48 AM
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Hi Leon,
You asked about Utility motorcycles.
As in the old joke patter, "I haff good news und I haff bad news".
The good news is I have all the Utility engine number records sitting in front of me. The bad news is they are on 16mm microfilm and I don't have a reader. Even when I do get a reader I've been warned that most if not all are handwritten- in pencil- and were well faded before microfilming anyway. Apparently in the years before computerisation took hold the Motor Registration Branch as it was then had the bright idea of microfilming a lot of the early records. Nothing wrong with microfilming, it is still a sensible way of recording and archiving stuff but unless you take care the quality drops a bit. Poor quality originals become rather poorer microfilms.
I gather modern microfilm scanners can improve things but as I know absolutely nothing about reading old microfilms in 2021 I'm on a very steep learning curve starting from absolute zero. All advice carefully listened to.
Cheers,
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Oh dear! But what excitement... (sad, isn't it).
My most recent experiences with microfilm were in the State Library of South Australia, and at Flinders Uni in SA, but the film and readers were 35mm on rolls, or occasionally flat sheets (around 4" square?) with a different reader. I wonder if such things still exist, time moving on and all that.
Maybe ten years ago I also looked at microfilm at the SLV in Melbourne, so they have/had a public microfilm reading room. But 16mm might prove a bit weird!
Cheers
Leon
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I’m told 16mm microfilm readers were rather top end in their day. The 16mm film rolls come in a cassette so are fairly well protected from careless handling and storage. The next week or so sees me tackling the local libraries and universities looking for a reader/scanner/printer.
The net shows combined 35/16mm machines so it should be entertaining.
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The state library of Vic has got readers for all formats. I used their service several times looking for old electronic circuits. I would also check with local library's near you. I also used Doncaster library they can help you 33d6.
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Just an update on the Utility Leon.
Lockdown has brought things down to a very slow shuffle. Essentially I’ve barely moved forward. My local council libraries don’t have 16mm microfilm readers and it appears that few institutions did. Nevertheless I’m making enquiries where I can but it’s a bit of a plod.
My major hope is the old Motor Registration Branch itself. Does it still have a reader buried away somewhere? Like all public service departments it’s seen it’s share of name changes and restructures over the years but I still have a serious contact there. He’s moaning and groaning because many of the staff are working from home which makes fishing expeditions looking for ancient machinery a hard slog but if you can’t torment your mates who can you torment?
Cheers,
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Thanks for the update - please don't lose any sleep over it! It's only a book about stupid old motorcycles!
I have an idea; in fact a couple of ideas.
I wonder if these guys know who might have a reader https://www.microfilm.net.au/products/microfilm-equipment/
But perhaps they know something else: can you just get a couple of 16mm reels - with the same drive arrangement as the 35mm reels - and take the film out of the cassette and wind it on to one of the reels? That way, it should/might be possible to view the film on a 35mm reader, of which there are surely still survivors.
(A variant would be to make a couple of 19mm spacers, and just use standard 35mm reels.)
Of course the proper way forward is to convince someone that records like this should not be lost, and get the whole lot digitised. The Trove project, which digitsed most of the nation's newspapers, has been a revolution.
Stay safe over there. We've just cancelled Melbourne travel plans for the umpteenth time.
Cheers
Leon
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I've got a microfiche page thats been photographed up to be readable.
Its a fairly modern motorcycle parts page.
Surprising who may have such stuff.
I'll bet they haven't thrown out this technology ...
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I know nothing of the technology you're talking of but a check on ebay here in UK shows a 16mm microfiche to digital service at £10.
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I don’t just have a “Utility” problem. That is just one make we have on microfilm. I need to find something/somewhere where I can have continual and easy access.
This 16m microfilm comes in cassettes each holding 50 feet of film. The Utility records are perhaps some 6” of this 50 feet. There are many cassettes and they don’t just have motorcycle records on them.
Please keep up the suggestions they’re all helpful and hopefully I’ll sort out some practical way to access these old records.
It might be boring crap to many but I’m a sucker for our local motorcycling history. I don’t want to see it lost.
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It is certainly not 'old boring crap' and I would hate to see all the Australian history lost. Please keep up the good work.
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Finally, finally, FINALLY, I have some 'Utility' answers. Thanks to a very helpful sponsor who wishes to remain anonymous we are near to starting the process of digitisiing all the AOMC engine number information held on 16mm microfilm.
I won't bore you with all the nonsense of seeking out a 16mm reader, blah,blah,blah, but I now have a sample demo file of what can be done with digitising and it includes the 'Utility' information. I will only say this about the original microfilm process. Never, never, never, leave it in the hands of an unsupervised office junior. It's obvious from the result how the organisation viewed the task of microfilming old records and how it got pushed downwards to the low man on the totem pole.. What a bloody mess. Anyhow, after much faffing about I've now got an overview of the Utility story. Getting it all correct and shipshape is going to take rather longer.
There are some 115 Utility recorded on the system. The great preponderance, some two thirds or so, are Villiers powered with either the early Mk VIIIC 148cc engine or its successor the Mk 12C, 147cc engine with some powered by the 123cc unit construction 8D/9D engine. One of these has the lowest engine number I've ever seen for this engine, AA686, so is from the first year of production, 1936.
Theoretically the Mk VIIIC ceased being used in motorcycles in 1931 with its role being taken over its successor the Mk12C but there are quite a lot of the earlier type. Did Villiers give Utility a good deal to use up these out of date engines? We'll never know will we.
From 1935 on there is a scattering of J.A.P. powered bikes, all ohv, and mainly 250 or 500's with very few 350 ohv. Mostly all dry sump versions but some not. It looks like 'Utility' did try to provide a bike with up to date technology.
I still have to plough through the handwritten initial registration dates which are an unholy mess so can't yet say when the first Utility was sold but we do know that this was yet another business that didn't survive WWII, so no post war Utility.
We are getting there, painfully slowly, but we are moving forward.
Cheers,
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Thanks 33d6 - very interesting!
I wonder if the presence of so many Mk VIIIC powered Utilities is a suggestion that they were locally built up from old stock. Unless Montgomery, or Excelsior, or someone else in the UK was building them and shipping them out here - too dated for the home market but just fine (at the right price) for the antipodes.
Anyway, I await the full analysis, but keep in mind that although I'm interested, perfect detail is not required for the current project. By the way, some of the previous Utility converstation starts here: http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.msg30144#msg30144
I'm working on the Ps at the moment. As usual, I've done most of the easy ones first. Pasco is the current puzzle - particularly the early years pre-1919. Stanley John Samuel Pascoe was the man, and in 1919 he entered into partnership with Con McRae, and trading as McRae & Pascoe they sold the Pasco Masterpiece, which was built for them by A. G. Healing. McRae left the partnership first, leaving his name behind, then Pascoe did the same, so in 1922 in Melbourne there was Pasco Motors run by Stan Pascoe, and McRae & Pascoe, where you would find neither Mr McRae nor Mr Pascoe!!
All the behind-the-scenes stuff is good fun, but the real deal is the bikes. With Pasco the problem is that there are two Pascos that have survived that pre-date McRae & Pascoe era. There is talk of a brother. I've just run down a promising lead in Bendigo where William Pascoe had a bicycle/engineering business, and during WW1 there is a reference to it as 'Pascoe Bros'. There was even a Stanley Pascoe from Bendigo who was injured in the war. But then it turns out the Bendigo Stanley Pascoe was not our Stanley Pascoe and we're back to square one. Sigh.
Maybe in the future I can ask when the first Pasco motorcycle was registered in Victoria.
Cheers
Leon
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I can hardly believe it: I am up to U is for Utility!!
I will have a go at writing the Utility entry. As usual the problem is there is lots of info, lots of gaps, and - because the book has potted histories of 500+ makes - not a huge number of words to condense it all into.
A rough count for the 250, 350 and 500 Utility JAPs would be good.
Cheers
Leon
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You must be a mind reader ,Leon. I collected the digitised microfilms yesterday! I’m dead keen to get at them.
Meanwhile I’ve counted the J.A.P engined Utilities and they are as follows.
6x 250, prefix POZ,
2x 350, prefix IO,
10x 500, prefix KO.
A small percentage of the whole.
A couple of the 500’s had their registration cancelled and were re-registered as J.A.P’s. Apparently Utility wasn’t a sporting name for your hot stuff bike.
The majority of Utility were powered by the 147cc Mk 12C engine, Some two thirds of them.
Obviously I have the full engine numbers of all Utility.
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Great!
I think I can say concisely "what they were", but I'm now struggling with "where did they come from".
Are there frame numbers? These might give a clue as to whether some were built up locally, or if they all came in "complete" from the UK. The original entry said "It is likely that Utility motorcycles were initially locally assembled, but later fully imported from Montgomery in Coventry, England." This is "true" - if only because "likely" is such a useful word!
The date of the first Utility would also be useful - you've previously mentioned that they were listed in 1931 in the Police book.
Cheers
Leon
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Sorry Leon, no frame numbers.
For some mysterious reason although chassis numbers were required on the car engine record cards and a space allotted for their inclusion frame numbers were not included on the motorcycle card. Just one of those mysterious bureaucratic decisions I suppose. So mostly they aren't there but sometimes they are and we don't know why they were added. Just as sometimes the name and address of the owner is included so for example I know that 84 odd years ago Colin Christie of The Sisters via Terang first registered his new 148cc Utility on 29/1/1937 and that the engine number was GY7503. (No frame number). I've no idea why all that was written down on his card but it was. Mostly though only the minimal clerical details are given.
Getting precise dates of first registration is equally frustrating.
Remember that registration of your vehicle is payable annually. The month and day of the month it is due was important to the authorities but the actual year wasn't because it was an annual fee. They didn't care what year it was, you had to put your hand in your pocket every year and pay up regardless. Consequently I am just as liable to find that instead of the whole date such as 9/12/2021 being recorded that the card just has 9/12 without the year.
Essentially when looking at cards en masse one can easily get a grasp of the overall trend but as far as giving precise information sometimes it's just down to pot luck. Yes, the Police book gives 1931 as the date of the first Utility. From the engine number records I can't go back much before 1935. I don't know why the difference.
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Well, slowly going through the digitised microfilm and slowly making sense of it all. It is in alphabetical order......sort of. As far as I can make out the microfilm was divided in two so as to both make it quicker to find stuff on the back half and to reduce the wear and tear on the film as you could start from either end. Anyway, all boring stuff but I'm getting the hang of it. Just don't rush me.
So, I've just steamed through Scott, Simplex, Speed, Star, Stevens, Sun and am on to Sunbeam.
Simplex I found 16 records. Earliest registration December 1936 and on up to mid 1939. All Villiers engines. One solitary 250, a couple of 196 cc 2E's and the rest 148cc Mk 12C powered.
I only found two Star, both first registered 1938. Both initially powered by the ever popular Villiers 148cc Mk12C but one, engine number GY8739 had its engine replaced by an earlier Mk 8C engine number W46133 so if anyone thinks they have found a much earlier Star as the engine is so much earlier, they haven't.
The Speed is a curiousity. I wasn't that much interested as it's only a cyclemotor attached to a pushbike but it's faintly possible it may be a local production. Engine numbers start 49/ and the highest I've found to date is 49/14. Sometimes I've found it listed as "pedal cycle with engine attachment(Speed)" and sometimes as just a 'Speed". I haven't really looked carefully as cyclemotors don't exactly get me in a lather of excitement but there's enough there for me to wonder if some local firm made them. It's just an itch I'll have to scratch some time.
An exciting summer lies ahead (not) as I keep trying to make sense of this stuff. The aim is to try and get the lot in some semblance of order so I know what makes are listed, on what microfilm and where I can find them. The current one I'm working on contains some 6000 records so knowing for example, that Rex Acme starts at 2097 and runs to 2147 makes it much easier to find. I need to do this with the lot of it. Idiots are easily amused aren't they.
Cheers,
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Excellent! Having "finished" the Ss, I'm pleased that the entries for Simplex and Star seem to fit in with the rego data:
SIMPLEX
In 1936, 1937, and possibly 1938, Turner Bros, 291 Elizabeth Street, Melbourne, Victoria, advertised Simplex Villiers motorcycles with 125 c.c., 148 c.c., 196 c.c., and 250 c.c. engines. The Simplex used a Burman gearbox and was said to be ‘built to suit Australian conditions.’ Although British made, the Simplex name was likely used only for export. [OK]
STAR (3)
In 1938, Finlay Bros, 322 Elizabeth Street, Melbourne, Victoria, advertised Star Villiers motorcycles using the 148 c.c. Super Sports engine. The Star was likely British made, with the Star name used only for export. [OK]
If you give me some likely dates for "Speed" I will have a look in the newspapers. "Speed" is one of those words that is difficult to search for as it is everywhere - better to look for things that are easier to find like T is for Trescowthick or Treblig. Maybe the 49/ Speed engine numbers means that it's post WW2.
Cheers
Leon
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About the only thing I’d comment on is Finlay’s bragging about the 148cc “Super Sports” engine. It was most pointedly not a “Super Sport” a term Villiers did use with certain engines but was instead their bottom of the range cooking model. It was of the fixed head and cast iron piston variety whereas the “Super Sport” variants had both alloy head and piston and held a remarkable number of World Records in the 175cc class.
I wouldn’t care about Finlay’s advertising puffery if it weren’t for the number of dreamers I get who think any Villiers engine with two exhaust ports is a “racing” engine. They don’t need encouragement.
I’ll go back over the Speed stuff a bit more carefully.
Finally, the Rego branch did register the odd bike as a Villiers or Sports Villiers. As far as I can see they were just bikes where the name on the tank was gone. Another mystery to poke and prod in due course.
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I blame Finlay Bros for the "Super Sport" thing!! See attached. Interesting what insight the rego records bring.
Re Villiers as a name: There were certainly "Australian-made" bikes that carried the name. I've recently done "T is for Torpedo", where Charles Hay in Launceston Tasmania built and sold Torpedo Villiers motorcycles. But for 18 months preceding this he built and sold Villiers motorcycles. The bikes were the Spark motor set, with (from 1924) the 247cc Villiers (what was this engine called?) and 3-speed Sturmey Archer. So not very exciting - in fact not exciting at all - but it certainly was an example of an Australian-made motorcycle sold as Villiers. That said, I suppose it looked identical to the Coventry-built Spark/Sparkbrook.
Cheers
Leon
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That Tassie Torpedo Villiers would have had one of Villers first 250cc engines, either the 6A, (1922-23) engine number prefix J, or a 7A, (1924-25) engine number prefix S. It all depends on how long it took for the order to travel to and the engines to come from the UK. All sea mail and sea freight in those days. Possibly they could have speeded things up by sending the order via electric telegraph, (cutting edge technology back then). Often it's the back story to all these things that fascinates me. As you say, the bike is not that exciting in itself but the story on how it came to be erected in Tasmania is a story in itself.
On other things that Finlay ad just confirms what I wrote earlier. The Simplex and Star had identical engines. Finlays adding on 'Super Sport' to their version was just advertising puffery. Nothing different to today is it.
The 'SPEED' engines. All told I found eleven cards listing the Speed engine but with duplicate cards and the things being recorded under two headings, both as pedal cycles with engine and by engine alone it finally boiled down to three engines. These were numbered 49/1, first registered 2/6/49. 49/2, first registered 5/9/49, and 49/14, first registered 7/11/49. They must have been pure cyclemotors as each was installed on a pushbike frame, one Myer, one Albion and the other un named. Cycle motors enjoyed a fad at that time along with various bods selling sets of castings for owners to build their own. I still have the plans to build the 'Busy Bee' version offered by the Model Engineer in 1951. Perhaps it was something along these lines. A nice little mystery to chew on when things are quiet.
Finally, when ploughing through the Speed stuff I chanced on an odd PASCOE. Engine number 18/68642 and first registered 5/6/1937. That engine number smacks of AMC, the old Matchless/AJS firm. They sold engines separately to various low volume builders back then, usually using the AJS engine prefix to identify the capacity. The 18 prefix would identify this engine as a 500 ohv single. Is this of any interest?
Cheers,
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I found another cache of Utility engine cards. Nothing changes except the number of Utility sold doubles to around 250 machines. The percentage of each type of engine stays roughly the same so as before the majority sold were 148cc bikes with the Mk12C engine. I did find a handful of 250cc machines having a 250cc Villiers rather than the 250cc ohv J.A.P.but they seem to be an addition to the range and not replacing the J.A.P. 250’s.
I’ve also found a solitary “Swift” motorcycle. Any idea of provenance Leon?
I keep ploughing on.
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Wow - 250 Utilities is quite few!
Re the Utility: The 148cc Mk12C Utility ran right through to the end of the 1930s? And where does the 250 Villiers fit in - post 1935?
Re the Pascoe: The man was Stan Pascoe, the bikes were Pasco, and the last Pasco motorcycle (in my opinion) was made around 1922. Pascoe sold Paco bicycles until 1934. So, unless 'your' Pasco is something weird and 1930s, I'm guessing it was a JAP twin, in which case "18/68642" as an engine number is no good but 8/68642 would be perfect for a 1920-build Australian-made JAP. If you had a decent 770cc JAP twin/3-speed Sturmey Archer chain/belt transmission Pasco in 1937 it could still serve a purpose on the road - worth re-registering.
Re the Swift: The British Ariel-linked Swift seemed to run out of puff around 1915, but some of them did have gearboxes, so, like the Pasco, putting one back on the road in the depression is not out of the question?
Re the Speed: I had a quick look but came up with nothing at all. As I said, "speed" is a rotten name to search for since the word appears everywhere. Luckily (!) we're stopping at WW2, but I'll be interested if anyone knows what a "Speed" is.
Cheers
Leon
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Yes, the last Mk 12C powered Utility were sold in late 1939 with the final one I found first registered in April 1940. Those powered by a 250cc Villers were all post 1935.
It’s the Mk8C powered ones I’m curious about. The Mk8C was made 1923-47 but in theory was no longer available for motorcycles once the Mk12C came on stream in 1931. Obviously this didn’t seem to matter if they were in bikes built for far distant overseas markets.
The Pascoe and Swift will just have to remain mysteries I suppose.
I shall keep nibbling away at the Speed. Possibly a browse around the State Library catalogues may be useful.
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Gaaahhh! Bloody microfilm records. I think making sense of these microfilmed records is the modern equivalent of a mediaeval torture dungeon. From what I've ploughed through to date it appears that VicRoads microfilmed what they thought were redundant records in bursts from about 1970 to 1983. It seems every now and then they'd do another batch. All roughly in alphabetical order but not necessarily bothering to blend them in correct alphabetical order with earlier batches. Sometimes they did, sometimes not. Cataloguing this stuff has turned from a slow plodding slog to something that would give a zombie a brain melt. Quiveringly dull but with so many bizarre mistakes and confused identities I can't afford to relax. Dippy things like when looking up Benelli records remember to look up the separate BOnelli records as well. Nor can I list how many ways VicRoads could spell Bombardier plus remember they included Bombardier snowmobiles in the motorcycle records (but not all snowmobiles).
Anyway, nothing of interest to note except the surviving Balmain Precision (already in the A-Z) popped up as re-registered in 1960. Reg no 036. I suspect this was an early red plate club permit concession. I hadn't appreciated how long our club permit scheme has been around.
The other thing of minor interest is the Barb. I've found records of four Barb autocycles so far, all immediately pre WWII, double what was previously thought. Each fitted with the up to 1939 Villiers Junior engine, not the later and much better Junior de Luxe. Each survived wartime usage and stayed on the road well into the 1950's. So far I've found no hint that Villiers sent any wartime motorcycle engines out here but appear to have supplied the home market only. Perhaps that stopped the Barb in it's tracks.
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So is the Barb autocycle in this post a Junior, or Junior de Luxe? http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.msg30338#msg30338
Leon
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A poor photo, Leon but I’m confident it’s a Junior.
The two can be differentiated at a glance. The later Junior deLuxe sports a detachable alloy head whereas the earlier Junior had a single unit, cast iron, fixed head and barrel.
There are multiple other minor differences but the alloy head is the most obvious, even to the most casual observer.
That photo shows the top end of the engine as a single dark coloured lump. I think an alloy head would have shown as a light coloured blob even if not clear enough to be recognisable as the cylinder head.
As an aside I’ve been surprised at the sheer number of auto cycles, cycle motors, mopeds and scooters in these records. Not of great interest to us and most disappeared when car ownership became more accessible but an interesting social phenomena all the same. It shows how much people value their mobility and will travel on anything if that’s all they can afford.
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I have the 'ESSEX' rego cards. You mentioned you were trying to pin down the lost make 'ESSEX' sometime back Leo. I seem to have gained some degree of confidence with the Keeper of the Cards and am now allowed to sort motorcycle cards in addition to the interminable Ford stuff. As I have a couple of Excelsior I asked if I could start with them and what make do you think was sitings right in front of Excelsior?
I have no knowledge of the ESSEX. I'd never heard of it until Leon told us of it. Was it a local Victorian confection or did it originate in another State? As it is there were eight ESSEX registered here in Victoria. All Villiers powered. Three with the 196cc 1E engine and five with the 147cc Mk VIIIC. As usual for the era only the day and month of registration was recorded. The actual year was not included but I compared the engine numbers with other known dated engines and they all seem to be very early thirties 1931-32 or thereabouts.
What is the ESSEX story Leon?
Cheers,
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Brilliant, as usual - thanks.
Eight Essexes would tie in with what we know from the advertising: only a small number of adverts in the Melbourne papers between May and October 1930. Perhaps one or two shipments? They were sold by the Melbourne Motor Cycle Co., 395-397 Elizabeth Street, Melbourne, Victoria.
In May 1930 the advert ran: "Just Arrived, Essex (Villiers) 2-stroke. A new, sturdy, man-sized job, offering value beyond all. From £30 10/ and £10 deposit."
I've not come across Essex outside of Victoria.
And that's all we know. The name Essex is not listed amongst the British makes, so it was either a very small maker, or a name used for export only, or, less likely, a name added to the bikes when they arrived. It would be fun to understand better how the wholesale trade worked at the time.
Anyway it's worth listing in case someone in Melbourne unearths an Essex, or even a photo of grandpa on his Essex. But with only 8 bikes in total, we may never know. Without a photo it's hard to begin to guess what the "man-sized" beast may have begun life as.
Cheers
Leon
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Anyway, nothing of interest to note except the surviving Balmain Precision (already in the A-Z) popped up as re-registered in 1960. Reg no 036. I suspect this was an early red plate club permit concession. I hadn't appreciated how long our club permit scheme has been around.
Sorry to revive an old topic, but I've been a bit interested in the Balmain Precision, if that is indeed what it is.
The 1960 rego fits in well: the bike was rescued by Gerry Trethewey c1959 and was restored and rallied soon after. There is an elaborate story that goes with the bike: the first version I've seen of it was by Dave Dumble who was the editor for the Motorcycle Collectors' Club of Victoria (precursor to the Vintage MCCV), in the June 1965 edition of their newsletter.
The Balmain was supposed to have been registered TWICE before: when it was new, and again around the outbreak of WW2. The first time it supposedly belonged to a Mr Vickers, and the second time it was used by his son. The story has it that the bike was built in December 1913, which I don't believe - more likely 1915 or 1916. The second part of the story with Mr Vickers' son may be an easier spot: I don't suppose you've seen a weird rego c1939 for a Precision, Balmain, or (my guess) Surrey??
Leon
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Sorry Leon, I can’t answer any of those questions. The information just isn’t on the cards.
They started off recording information in what they thought was a relevant way but over time realised it just wasn’t . They rarely went back to update early cards. They only did so if they had to add fresh information such as a re registration.
For my own amusement I have listed all Utility's organised into engine types with engine numbers in order. I a send a copy if you wish. It is all the info I have.
Cheers,