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Motorcycle Discussions => British Bikes => Topic started by: doughobbs on August 01, 2021, 07:16:16 PM

Title: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 01, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Another day and another newbie question from me!
Can people advise if these
https://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_22_34&products_id=1024 (https://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_22_34&products_id=1024)
https://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_22_34&products_id=748 (https://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_22_34&products_id=748)

....will fit this....
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4YG46Ww8L1bGVNJX9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/4YG46Ww8L1bGVNJX9)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ceb51ZyrftomLXVB8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/ceb51ZyrftomLXVB8)

I'm struggling to be sure if what I'm looking for sale is a 6 inch headlight even though they show as 5 3/4! 🤔

Sorry if I'm being dim!
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 01, 2021, 11:36:30 PM
Thats a VERY valid question.

I recently bought some 7" rims, to fit common '7 inch' headlamp shells as used in the 1960s and 1970s.
Like your measurements above, no-where could a precise 7" measurement be observed. !!
They fitted perfectly, of course.

I think that means that rim will fit that shell and headlamp unit for you ....

P.S. Perhaps we should have begun by asking precisely what bike/year/model this was for.
No chance of wrongly assuming anything then ...
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 02, 2021, 06:56:27 AM
Perhaps we should have begun by asking precisely what bike/year/model this was for.
No chance of wrongly assuming anything then ...


It's a 1953 Sun challenger (plunger) 197cc. A far as I know its the original light shell. I didn't mention make /model as Sun info seems to be sparse at best!
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: Rex on August 02, 2021, 08:33:38 AM
Whatever size a Sun Challenger would need you can bet it's an industry standard size. There's no way a small company like Sun would have knocked out their own size of headlamp when there were ranges of lamps and styles available from Lucas etc.
Either take your shell to an autojumble to see what fits or search Ebay, find a likely candidate and ask the seller to measure exactly the shell-side dimension.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: john.k on August 02, 2021, 02:13:15 PM
I believe lights are measured over the open part of the shell...a 6" lamp is going to be a DU42,the 7" of the late 40s is the DU 142
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 03, 2021, 12:02:06 AM
It's a 1953 Sun challenger (plunger) 197cc.

Aha. Can you turn your headlamp shell over, and find a Lucas number on it anyplace.
Does that tang shown on the Lucas rim have a suitable slot in your shell ?

I'd comment that a lotta Villiers powered beasties used Miller electrics.
My little Waratah/Excelsior, slightly earlier than your Sun, rigid frame, has a similar looking shell,
similar measurements. (no ammeter though). It has a Miller Lighthouse headlamp switch.
I've just been figuring out the connections.

Its got MILLER proudly emblazoned on the top of the rim.
https://i.postimg.cc/mDSbTYJb/Miller4.jpg (https://i.postimg.cc/mDSbTYJb/Miller4.jpg)

I would think that Villiers Services are THE most likely folks to have the right rim for you.
As long as its Lucas.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 03, 2021, 12:18:14 AM
And, as a final quality control check (!), what does your shell have to lock the rim in place ?

There must be a dozen types of such, usually appearing at 6 o'clock (BDC).
Slot, hole, tang, rivet, etc ??
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 03, 2021, 10:56:36 AM
And, as a final quality control check (!), what does your shell have to lock the rim in place ?

There must be a dozen types of such, usually appearing at 6 o'clock (BDC).
Slot, hole, tang, rivet, etc ??

And, as a final quality control check (!), what does your shell have to lock the rim in place ?

There must be a dozen types of such, usually appearing at 6 o'clock (BDC).
Slot, hole, tang, rivet, etc ??

I'm afraid with the paint it too thick or there is nothing stamped on the shell - I had a good look around and couldn't see anything.

There is a box of bits that came with the bike though and there is a very similar (bit rusty at the moment!) 7 inch shell in there which is marked up as MU42 - I'm in a quandary now as I'm not sure what size shell is the correct one, guessing the smaller one (later battery equipped SUN's might have gone up a size)?
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: Rex on August 03, 2021, 11:08:48 AM
MU42 is the common type where the switch panel (inc ammeter) is mounted on top of the shell, and often seen on 1940s bikes. I wouldn't think this would have been original for a post-war lightweight though.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 03, 2021, 12:36:08 PM
MU42 is the common type where the switch panel (inc ammeter) is mounted on top of the shell, and often seen on 1940s bikes. I wouldn't think this would have been original for a post-war lightweight though.

Both shells I have have the same fitting for the switch panel and ammeter so I could move them over - they are different in design though with regard to how the rim is held in place, the 6 inch one has a notch and also a hole at 12 O'clock, a slight flared section from about 4 to 7 O'clock, a cut out at 6 O'clock and another at 11 O'clock - I've tried to take some more pics of the shell that I think is the correct one (the smaller one).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/tk1XNbUCVN7kFMdQ6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/tk1XNbUCVN7kFMdQ6)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AeKwh62ux3ASoVsv6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/AeKwh62ux3ASoVsv6)


The larger Lucas shell is clearly different in the rim design
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LjJU4ZxLg9CpZPMw7 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/LjJU4ZxLg9CpZPMw7)

Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: mini-me on August 03, 2021, 02:25:59 PM
the lucas shell you are holding is for later reflectors, flat glass rims used a differents shell.

over-thinking  a problem only makes it worse.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 03, 2021, 03:03:25 PM
well whaddaya know!
Kept digging about and this tipped up eBay which is the very same as mine!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/402997716340 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/402997716340)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/SJ8AAOSwiMFg6HCJ/s-l1600.jpg)


Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: gambole1949 on August 03, 2021, 08:22:17 PM
Hiya Doug a while ago we purchased some rims for our Sun bikes and although it states on the box that they are 5 3/4 the actual size of the inner is 6 inches. hope this helps. I think it is because the lens is 5 3/4 I might be wrong.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 03, 2021, 10:59:32 PM
well whaddaya know!
Kept digging about and this tipped up eBay which is the very same as mine!

Well thats a new one on me. Unknown territory even.

Its this view thats the diagnostic one ..
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ptkAAOSwikpg6HBa/s-l1600.jpg

I'd run that by Villiers Services, and see if they can supply a rim.

Its not impossible that its still the same size as on my earlier Excelsior/Waratah ?
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: Rex on August 04, 2021, 08:31:56 AM
Too tight to even punch out the ammeter hole and fit one.. ;)
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 04, 2021, 10:51:53 AM
Only the battery models would have needed/used an ammeter ?
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 04, 2021, 11:14:14 AM
Only the battery models would have needed/used an ammeter ?

good point - mine has an ammeter but no battery, that said I'm still learning what is missing from the bike, what it should have had on it and also what its had added to it!
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: gambole1949 on August 04, 2021, 07:07:09 PM
hiya Doug I have asked my brother to take a couple of pics of our Challenger headlight and i will post them on here. I put the pics of the rims on here. This is the original lens and note the number at the bottom 575 ( 5 3/4 ) Hope this makes sense lol. All the best Bud.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 05, 2021, 09:00:25 AM
good point - mine has an ammeter but no battery, that said I'm still learning what is missing from the bike, what it should have had on it and also what its had added to it!

Do you have a lightswitch ??

In my (earlier) style Villiers (Miller) headlamp, the only fitting in the headlamp (apart from the bulbs and reflector) is a lightswitch.

I can't help wondering if yours should be the same. ??
Batteries were a rather late addition to becoming standard on a bike.
And if there is no obvious place to fit one, maybe it didn't have one...
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: john.k on August 05, 2021, 10:50:10 AM
The electric output from flywheel mags is a/c ......to charge a battery you need d/c.....consequently a rectifier and a voltage regulator .....so save expensive complication that owners of tiddlers would never maintain in working order,and run an oversize filament bulb direct from a coil inside the flywheel......A/c output also means an ammeter wont work.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: 33d6 on August 05, 2021, 11:32:09 AM
Villiers provided two lighting circuit choices from the 1930’s on. One the el cheapo direct lighting from the lighting coils only and t’other a circuit that included some sort of rectifier for battery charging plus a battery of course thus providing a steady light.

Many bike manufacturers offered the second and more expensive circuit plus the odd other extra as well and then sold that bike as a “de luxe” model.

Both circuits are primitive by modern standards. They rarely, if ever, provided an ammeter. My electronics engineer nephew is very rude about both circuits.

I expect your 1953 Challenger was offered with both circuits depending on how much money the buyer wanted to spend.

Finally these old circuits are dead easy to upgrade using modern components.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: mini-me on August 05, 2021, 11:44:05 AM
that last lamp is, possibly, a villiers unit, can't be sure.

What i am sure of is that 40 years ago if I got any of them in a load of spares they were scrapped, no one wanted them, much the same as the bikes that used them.

funny old world.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 05, 2021, 03:01:32 PM

Do you have a lightswitch ??

In my (earlier) style Villiers (Miller) headlamp, the only fitting in the headlamp (apart from the bulbs and reflector) is a lightswitch.

I can't help wondering if yours should be the same. ??
Batteries were a rather late addition to becoming standard on a bike.
And if there is no obvious place to fit one, maybe it didn't have one...
There is a flip switch on the left side of the handlebars that also has a press button (assuming horn). There isn't anywhere obvious that a battery carrier would bolt to ( in terms of lugs/holes etc.), my gut feeling is it was direct lighting and my dad was either in the process of 'upgrading' it or someone before him did and never finished the job off.

Its all very curious stuff and good fun learning for me!

I have to also say at this point - many thanks to everyone for your comments and help - you are a grand bunch of people!
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 06, 2021, 12:30:18 AM
I think that hole in the headlamp where you presently have an ammeter would originally have had a lighting switch. ?
If this bike had the simple ac flywheel electrics.

Unless the headlamp switch has been stripped off someplace else.
As has the battery carrier.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 06, 2021, 06:50:39 AM
A battery in situ, as it were ... ?

(http://dogdragons.com/dogdragons/a-2-z/s/sun-challenger_de-luxe-1952.JPG)

The 'de Luxe' tag may indicate it has a battery ?
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: doughobbs on August 06, 2021, 04:09:43 PM
A battery in situ, as it were ... ?

(http://dogdragons.com/dogdragons/a-2-z/s/sun-challenger_de-luxe-1952.JPG)

The 'de Luxe' tag may indicate it has a battery ?

You're onto something there - especially with that image! there isn't any lugs/holes for a battery on the frame so I'm guessing its a clamp around the seat tube battery cage affair....something for another thread, or maybe I rename this one!  ;D

Thanks for the image - all helpful stuff!
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: 33d6 on August 07, 2021, 01:01:37 AM
Perfectly normal for the “de luxe” battery carrier to be attached in weird and wonderful ways. Having played with this sort of thing for years and years I can say with confidence that the usual design philosophy was to build a bare bike and then add things on to make it “de luxe”.
The British lightweight world were very slow to catch on to the idea of designing a complete roadworthy and legal bike without needing to add to add stuff.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: mini-me on August 07, 2021, 09:19:07 AM
When that thing was current the target market for it was mostly men who just needed cheap work transport, couldn't afford a car, and buses probably not the routes they needed with emphasis on cheap, it was still austerity days, still lots of things on ration, and very little disposable income for the working man, unlike today.

Its a cheapo bike, probably availiable with direct lighting, which could be uprated as and when. Accessory catalogues such as from Halfords, Marble Arch motor supplies, Grose and the like are a mine of information for add on bits from those days.

The bike should be looked at in its place in time not as some two wheeled treasure.
Title: Re: 6" headlamp shell but lights are 5 3/4?
Post by: R on August 07, 2021, 11:40:46 PM
The bike should be looked at in its place in time not as some two wheeled treasure.

This may not be the time nor place to debate the merits of that statement. !
But I'd both agree and disagree.

1. I'd agree on the basis that spending too many large wads of cash on it is probably not an economically sound decision.
2. And disagree, on the basis that ANY motorcycle from the past is worthy of preserving, simply so a representative
population of survivors will survive. Not forgetting #1 ...

We could go on, but I'll leave it there.