Help with Royal Enfield ID

[KingRat]

Can anyone help me to identify a Royal Enfield that I have inherited from Scotland.
The V5C states its a 250cc, first registered 02/12/1942. Engine number is 3355 and frame 4778
I know nothing more than this except my uncle apparently purchased the machine new in 1942.
All help will be appreciated.
Thank you, Nigel

[RichP]

Hello Nigel,

I think that there's probably quite an interesting story behind this bike. Did your uncle have an official function ? By 1942, new motorcycles for private purchase were pretty well unavailable. I believe however that some were available for Government Inspectors etc.

The bike is likely to be a 250cc sidevalve Model D. -  A number of batches were made for WD use but Orchard & Madden's Military motorcycle 'bible' says that  production stopped by early 1941.

The book does list frame numbers 4775 and 4779 which were part of a 1940 contract, some of which went to Stirling.

Does the bike have the square tool box behind the motor ? Any chance of a  picture ?  

[KingRat]

Hi Rich,

Thank you for your reply. The bike does have a square tool box on the nearside behind the engine, and I am certain that it's a 250.
Unfortunately the history passed away with my uncle, but I suspected that this might be an ex WD machine. The V5C tells very little unfotunately, but I wonder if he somehow acquired the bike from the WD, although I suspect that this would not have happened until after the war. I will get a couple of photos done on Friday and add them, as I know that this will help.
As far as I know the bulk of his working life was served as an electrician in a local power station.
The history jigsaw would begin to come together if it was possible to identify who the bike was initially supplied to, although the V5C does say new at first registration.
I will be restoring the machine, and want to make the restoration as close to original as possible (original colours etc.)
Thank you for your help
Kind regards, Nigel

[RichP]

Hello Nigel,

Glad to hear that you're intending to restore. I 've put some feelers out and I have a contact who has just taken on a WD/D from the first WD contract. It was very much based on the civilian bike and was used for communications etc.

I wouldn't put too much faith in a V5 - lots of information both good and bad got changed when everything was put on computer. The old buff log book would have been more reliable. If the bike was used by a Utility company or something, it would have had a civil registration and the date of first registration could be correct. Is the Reg no. from an area where records have survived ? Is it a "Scottish" one or a Middlesex one ?

It would seem to me quite possible that someone involved with power generation might have had the use of transport, particularly if he was on-call in a remote area or something and perhaps he was then able to purchase it when it was no longer needed. If he'd always had the use of it, it would hardly seem second-hand !

Best Wishes,

Rich

[KingRat]

Hello Rich,

Thank you for putting out some feelers.

The registration is GLL, so Glasgow I believe. Do you know if this is somewhere where the records have survived, and how to contact the appropriate authority? The DVLA have not been able to help, and I have no way of finding the old log book.

Your theory that the bike may well have belonged to the power company could be a good one. It's so difficult to get an accurate record as there are now no surviving family members in Scotland. I do know that the bike had not moved since 1968. It is complete, with the exception of the silencer, but has obviously been repainted, which made me question if it was ex WD.

It will be interesting to see if you can turn up any more info. I have restored many bikes in my time, but have always known the history, so this one is a bit of a challenge!

Kind regards,

Nigel

[RichP]

Nigel,

The second two letters are the important ones. "LL" would have been Liverpool I believe.

If any one has records, it would be The Kithead Trust

http://www.kitheadtrust.org.uk/

However, their list shows Liverpool records as not having survived.

Rich

[L.A.B.]

,

The second two letters are the important ones. "LL" would have been Liverpool I believe.

'LL' is a NW London registration - not Liverpool.

[RichP]

Erm, I couldn't find my old AA book quickly and I mis-read this site

http://www.fleetdata.co.uk/allocations.html

Well, it is quite badly spaced !

[rewdco]

Hi Nigel,

Did you check this thread? http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=10;action=display;num=1186418521

Has your engine a broad arrow stamping with a letter M underneath?

Cheers,
Jan

[KingRat]

Hello everyone,

Firstly, I would like to thank you all for your help with identifying this machine. I have taken some pictures, but they are too large a file size to download onto this site.

Jan, I have looked at the engine and there is no arrow, only the letter D and the numbers.

Rich, thank you especially. I have e-mailed Ron (and sent him one of the photos. I wish I could get them on here,  as I am sure that this would help the experts.

I am still hoping that there may be preserved records prior to DVLA, and have been encouraged by the London registration. This, however, now begs the question of how the first owner was a man who I believed never left Scotland in his life!!

I don't suppose that I will ever have all the answers, but I do hope that someone can shed some more light on the history.

Best regards,

Nigel

[L.A.B.]

I have taken some pictures, but they are too large a file size to download onto this site.


I wish I could get them on here,  as I am sure that this would help the experts.

You could email the photos to Nigel (VintageBike) http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Contact.html as I am sure he will post them up here.
  

[VintageBike]

My pleasure...

[RichP]

What a nice thing to have Nigel. I'm not even sure if I would restore it. That word "patina" comes up a lot these days.

The maroon colour is reasonably common on ex-ministry bikes reconditioned for post-war civilian sale (the alternatives were usually black or dark green).

An explanation for the London number might well be that they were often bought up in large numbers by the big London dealers who would put them on the train to the nearest station at no extra cost (This was in the days when all stations had goods yards and most trains had plenty of space in the Guard's van !)

I do think it most likely that this was a post-war purchase.

[KingRat]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your reply. I agree that it is tempting to leave "As Is" but the photos make the bike look a lot better than it is in the flesh.

I have been in touch with Ron, and he has been most helpful. I think that we have arrived at the conclusion that this is not ex WD, as the numbers correspond to a break between WD contracts. Your theory that it was used for essential services seems very strong, and I now believe that the bike was probably purchased after the war by my uncle. I have scraped away a bit of flaking paint, arriving at bare metal with no hint of any other colour underneath. So I guess that the maroon must be original, unless (unlikely) a bare metal repaint was carried out.

I have to thank you for your help and will be persuing the records available in the hope that they have survived.

kind regards,

Nigel

[rewdco]

Hi Nigel,

The Royal Enfield Owners Club hold the original factory ledgers, dating back to the pre war days. With the frame number, they can check what the original engine number must have been, and to whom and when it was sold. Worth a try?

Cheers,
Jan