francis barnett??????

[pwepaul]

what year make and model is this? I have been told it is a Francis Barnett. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[33d6]

We can't do much until the photo appears but meanwhile precise identification relies on the frame and engine numbers. If you could tell us those it would be terrific.
Cheers, Bob

[pwepaul]

sorry, I'm working on getting the picture to load. Having trouble , every time I click on the post button it tells me that the pic already exists and I need to reload it? Hope I get it loaded soon, I'm very interested to get some feed back.  

[pwepaul]

For some reason the pic will not load from my computer. is there any way I could email it to the web master?

[VintageBike]

HI,

yes email it to me at nigel.wynne@vintagebike.co.uk and I will attach it for you.

regards

Nigel Wynne
www.vintagebike.co.uk

[VintageBike]

[Justin_Faithfull]

The engine is a 98cc Villiers with (I believe) an Albion 2 speed gearbox.
I don't recognise it as a Francis Barnett, but it does look a bit like a Gloria from the early / mid thirties - a budget model made by Triumph & sold under the Gloria marque name.

[33d6]

Justins right. It's not a Francis Barnett.
Give us the frame and engine numbers and we can probably identify it.
Cheers,

[pwepaul]

i will post the frame and engine numbers as soon as I get home tonight and look for them. I am almost certain that the neck of the frame had a francis barnett emblem on it but I could be wrong or it could of been a sticker someone put on along the years.  I was trying to find some pice of the Gloria bikes to check similarites or make and model and I could not find one image. Are they very rare because it was not a popular bike ? What do you think the chances are of me having the only one in America? Thanks again guys, for all your help. Paul

[Justin_Faithfull]

Here is a picture of a Gloria motorcycle scaned from the book 'British Motorcycles of the 1930's', author Roy Bacon, publisher Osprey, ISBN 0-85045-657-6.
As you you can see there is a ressemblance, but also some significant differences.
The frame tube below the saddle is not vertical, the forks are tubular rather than pressed steel & filler cap is on the other side of the tank.
The Gloria was made by Triumph who wanted a small lightweight but without ruining their reputaion by actually putting their name to it! It has the same engine & gearbox as your bike & was made from 1931 (for the 1932 model season) until 1933 - for two model seasons only.
The fuel tank is similar.
Maybe the bike was altered from one year to the next?
Hope this is helpful.
Incidently I believe Triumph used the Gloria name for other products - sidecars & bicycles
Perhaps someone else can provide further infomation?

[pwepaul]

the only number on the frame I could find was on the neck and it reads P106. then there is the two pieces of steel that hold the motor to the frame and one piece has the numbers 410 stamped on the inside of that.  the gearbox is albion 734 and the mag has some numbers stamped in in when I took the cover off. they read mag 61. the engine says the villiers midget in  two places and it has the raised letters of BC on one side. the plate above the front tire reads jb651 if that means anything or if that is even original? the horn has a stamp on it that reads DESMO from Birmingham and the light reads Joseph Lucas LTD type R510. Hopefully some of this will make sense to some of you. Also the neck has a logo that looks like a crown above some kind round image that is above what looks like a banner. Thanks

[TriSpec]

 As Justin said, "you you can see there is a ressemblance, but also some significant differences.
The frame tube below the saddle is not vertical, the forks are tubular rather than pressed steel & filler cap is on the other side of the tank.
The fuel tank is similar. "

Actually although a similar outline to the tank the Gloria's had a flat side for the panel lining and name, while this tank has a pronounced curve to it.
No, not a Gloria for the reasons above but certainly a nice copy.  The 98cc Midget Villiers engine was fitted to many different machines, and there were many small manufacturers making just a handful of machines - names un-recognised today. Parts would have been readilly available and it would have been simply a case of bolting them together, without actually needing to manufacture anything.  I can see where the Fanny-Barnett suggestion came from as they did use a vertical saddle down-tube.

So, not a Gloria, but yes, Triumph owned the Gloria Cycle Company  and also used the name for their sidecars - and also with 1934 to '37 cars.

Peter C.
(VMCC Triumph Specialist)

[33d6]

This is turning out to be a hard one but that is common for this type of machine. Several manufacturers made them and all bought in the major components from the same suppliers. They are hard to differentiate. Excelsior made a very similar machine with the same underslung tank and pressed steel forks but as with the Gloria, the frame is quite different around the saddle area. I'll keep looking.
Meanwhile you need info on engine maintenance, fuel and oil,etc because I'm sure you want to go for the odd ride.
Firstly, this engine has a cast iron piston, no compression seals in the crankcase and plain bush main bearings. This means using a lot more oil than a modern two-stroke. You are not doing the engine a favour running it on a 50:1 mix of modern synthetic racing two-stroke oil. The original petrol/oil mix was 20:1, you can safely drop this to 25:1 using ordinary two stroke oil. The cheapest two stroke oil of today is far, far better than the best oils available when the engine was new.
If it starts to run a bit smoky take it on a fast non stop run for an hour or so and it will clean itself out.
Same goes for petrol(gas?), cheapest unleaded is best.
Tell us how you get on,
Cheers, Bob

[33d6]

I think I have it. I think it may be a Sun.
Sun produced one of this type of bike from 1931 to 33 inclusive. It has the same vertical saddle tube, rear stand and pressed steel forks. Sun also used a 'P' prefix to the frame numbers at that time plus their tank transfer included a crown on top similar to the headstock transfer.
The VMCC library has Sun catalogues covering this period and can provide Sun transfers also. These services are available to the general public. You don't have to be a member.
Their website is www.vmcc.net and you can order through the website.
Cheers, Bob

[L.A.B.]

I think I have it. I think it may be a Sun.

I think you are right.

Here is the Sun badge:  http://www.classictransfers.co.uk/html/gallery1_28.html