Villiers Super Sports TT. Excelsior??

[Norton55]

Hi everybody,
My dad owns a motorcycle with a Villiers Super Sports TT engine. We think it is an Excelsior but haven't been able to find another example on the internet to compare how original it is. The engine number is KZ1791 and the frame number is W1056. After doing a bit of research on the internet about the Villiers Super sports TT engine I believe it to be 172cc made between 1926 and 1932, but I have no idea about the model of the bike. So any more info about the bike would be appreciated.  
Thanks
Norton55

[Norton55]

Here is a closer picture of the engine and gearbox.

[Justin_Faithfull]

The Villiers engine you have is not a 172cc TT Super Sports, if it was the pre-fix on the engine number would be BZ.
What you have is 196cc Super Sports engine with the pre-fix KZ. These engines were made by Villiers from 1929 to 1924.
I am not able to tell you anything about the bike at the moment, but will see what I can find out.

[33d6]

You certainly have an Excelsior and it is largely correct, there only being those minor differences that happen to any bike that has been in use for 80 years.
It would appear to be a Model 4 catalogued only in 1930 and 1931 with the 196 Super Sports engine.
I think you have the frame number wrong as it is unlike any Excelsior frame number I've seen. Basically, it should have an 'A' prefix for 1930 and a 'B' prefix for 1931. I would have another careful look as the difference is important if you want to enter proper vintage events like the Banbury Run.
They are a sweetie of a bike that well reflect Excelsiors sporting prowess at the time. Excelsior was a major player in the lightweight class at the time and it shows in how all their bikes handle.
You can buy copies of the 1931 & 32 catalogues from BMS which will show you exactly what you have.
As you may gather, I have one myself.
Cheers,

[Norton55]

Thank you Justin and 33d6 for your quick replies.
Well, I thought it was an Super Sports TT engine as thats what it says on the barrel. I've attached a pic where you can make it out. I did check the engine prefix on http://www.villiers.info/ and was confused at the fact that my bike has a KZ prefix instead of the BZ but the barrel says otherwise. I considered that the bike may have had parts replaced or mixed with other bikes, but since the bike is located in India, I'm not sure if many of these were sent to India to allow parts to be exchanged. I can't check the frame number again as the bike is in India and I currently in the US and was considering bringing it to the US. It is possible that the frame number my dad gave me is a part number rather than the actual frame number.

I am very curious about the girder fork on the bike as it looks like its steel pressed like on German bikes rather than the tubular ones on other British bikes. I googled early Excelsior bikes and most of them seemed to have the tubular type forks. Also could you suggest any websites for more information regarding Excelsiors of this period? What other differences would there be between a super sports tt and a 196 super sports engine. Is one more collectible/desirable than the other? Are these relatively common or would they be considered rare?I don't have any idea about these bikes as I'm more into pre 1955 Nortons and Triumphs, but I find this bike very interesting.

Thanks again
Norton55

[33d6]

Hi again,
Yes, they are pressed steel forks and Excelsior first used them in 1930. Pressed steel forks were used more and more on British lightweights throughout the 30's and 40's finally fading out in the early 50's. They were used far more than you expect although this early style with the cutouts making them superficially similar to the tubular style didn't last long.
Viliers made both a 175cc Super Sports TT engine and a 196cc Super Sports TT engine also so both would have the same markings on the rear of the barrell. They are near identical in performance. The 175 version first appeared in 1924 and was raced in the UltraLightweight TT of that year and the 196 came along a ferw years later. I've never quite worked out why Villiers bothered with the 196 Super Sports version but suspect it relates to the German market as do the other 196 Villiers engines of the day. The up to 200 cc class was very popular in Germany back then as apparently motorcycles under 200cc didn't pay any road tax.  
Whatever the reason, the difference in performance between the two capacities is minuscule.
I'm not surprised your father got the frame number wrong. It's a common error and given the factory stamps the frame in a hard to find spot, then paints over it plus some later owner has applied even more paint over it, it is very easy to get it wrong.
As for collectibility/ desirability all I can say is that mine draws a crowd in whatever event I ride it in and someone is always taking a photograph of it. They do make a nice change from the endless stream of Triumph, BSA and Norton (sorry).
As for rarity, I live in Australia and since getting my own Excelsior I'm surprised at how many other owners I've met up with although most bikes are unrestored and in the same condition as yours.
Cheers,

[Norton55]

33d6, Thanks for the wealth of information.
So just to confirm, my bike has a 196cc super sports tt villiers engine and is a Model 4 as per the Excelsior range. Did excelsior offer the bike with both the super sports and super sports tt engine? ( If i understand correct, the difference is that the super sports tt has a detachable head while the super sports engine doesn't.)

norton55

[33d6]

Hi again,
Exploring what engines Villiers built and for what purpose can get a little involved as they were very flexible and would cheerfully vary the mix to suit the paying customer. Especially if they were buying in substantial numbers. We know the official line but there could be an amazing amount of minor variations. Different size spark plug, spark plug in different positions, different inlet manifolds, variations in the electrics, different lubrication systems and so on, nevertheless, the basics remain the same.
Anyway, the basic line of 172cc 57.15 bore x 67mm stroke sporting engines is as follows,

1, the Sports engine, fixed head and cast iron piston, available 1924-1932. engine number prefix T or TL (Autolube). Villiers created the first of the 196cc engines, the 1E, by overboring this engine to 67mm. Original 172 Sports are hard to find as many were routinely overbored to take a 196cc piston in later life.
 
2, the Super Sports TT, alloy head, alloy piston, available 1926-1932. Engine number prefix BZ. Sorry, I said earlier it first appeared in the 1924 Ultralightweight TT, it was the next years Ultra lightweight race, 1925 that it first appeared.

3 the Brooklands, larger alloy head plus alloy piston and other assorted internal goodies.  Available 1925-34, engine prefix Y. Sold as a racing engine only and Villiers advised it was not suitable for use on the road. I've never managed to get my hands on one of these, only seen pictures.

Then, years later in 1929 Villiers produced the 196 Super Sports and depending on what you are reading it can be plain Super Sports or Super Sports TT. Don't ask. The 196 version ran from 1929 to 1940 when Hitler stopped play.

As you earlier inferred, one can really mix'n'match the various Villiers parts. Currently I am erecting a petroil lubricated 172 Super Sports TT using a MkXIIC bottom end and a Supers Sports top half. This is for my second Excelsior, a 1929 Chequerboard.
Cheers,

[Norton55]

33d6, Once again thanks for all the information. I love finding more information and history about these old bikes.
I would love to see a picture of your Excelsior Model 4 for comparison.

norton55

[33d6]

Hi again,
I think we've gone well past the intent of the forum in identifying the little bike.
I'm happy to keep up the correspondence but not bore everyone else to death doing it here. If you'd like to send your email address via the forum message system I'll respond likewise.
Cheers,  

[29 excelsior]

33d6, I would love too see pics of youe 1929 checker board excelsior 172cc . I own the same listed in vintage bike photo gallery 250cc   + other 1929 excelsiors 350cc and 500cc.I am currently making moulds for repo petrol tanks if interested.
cheers tony

[33d6]

Hi Tony,
The Excelsior has a remarkably simple saddle tank to reproduce. In fact the simple method of production led to a perfect moisture trap along the inner seam so the bottom rots out. Easy to cure in hindsight 80 years later.
I have a spare tank and possibly the 'orrible rotten remains of another (don't think I threw it out). You are welcome to borrow them for reproduction purposes.
I've just bought a 1929 copy of "The MotorCycle" that reports on that years Motor Cycle Show. I was tickled to see it describes the smallest bike in the Excelsior range (mine) as "possibly the prettiest bike in the Show". Its nice to read that someone else beside me thinks its a little sweetie.
Give me a ring. Going to Ballarat swap?

[wetdog]

I have a villiers engine out of a excelsior but its water cooled ? the radiator is solidly mounted off the head ( not a rubber hose ) any ideas what model its for , or has somone made it

[29 excelsior]

would love to see you bikes or photos,
 correct  original 1929 petrol tank for pattern would be great as mine are repo
email kca20940@bigpond.net.au
 will make it to ballarat  swap if you can bring tank
cheers tony

[wetdog]

".I am currently making moulds for repo petrol tanks if interested."
are these manxman tanks , and are you in australia ?  I need one for this , the tank on it is shot