Author Topic: 1962 Model 88; previously 1957 basket case value?  (Read 172602 times)

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2013, 10:20:47 PM »
Don't let that 'machinist' do ANYTHING to that head until you have at least 10 opinions on it.
More Norton parts have been ruined by folks with good intentions than than than....

Painting is like everything - more opinions than you can count.
A dozen folks would have at least 2 dozen ways to paint the same type of paint !
Let alone the myriads of different paint versions these days.
And as my painting teacher said, good painting is 99% preparation, and then just wave the spraygun at it.

How to spray these new waterbased enamels would be of some interest though.

P.S. If your cylinder is well worn, the base spiggott is where you look to determine if it can be used, or needs sleeving.

Cheers.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2013, 10:49:23 PM »
Thanks R

I have just come back from the machinist and the bottom of the skirt is currently 90 thou oversize but from the skirt up it seems the bore will comfortably take 60thou overbore, is this discrepancy what you are talking about?

I am given to understand the lower part of the barrels are a little unstable?

Kiwi

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2013, 10:58:05 PM »
You are so right about painting and preparation!

Do you have specific issues on water based?

They can be problematic with pigment float or tracking, where you get a mottled look coming up to the surface?

They need to be mixed very gently to avoid foaming.

Are you compelled  to use water based?

For small areas sanding epoxies and aliphatic urethane's give sterling results.   

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2013, 11:10:10 PM »
I have just come back from the machinist and the bottom of the skirt is currently 90 thou oversize but from the skirt up it seems the bore will comfortably take 60thou overbore, is this discrepancy what you are talking about?

90 thou ?  60 thou ??
We need better words here to understand quite what is meant here. ???

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2013, 11:12:38 PM »
Have no experience whatsover with water based enamels.
A 3 sentence summary of whats what with painting them could be useful.
Or even if they are toxic....

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2013, 12:42:07 AM »
Basically by the time we re-bore the barrels to .060 over size it will leave us with the bottom of the barrel (skirt) that protrudes into the crank case still measuring .090 over size.

The barrel will be cylindrically uniform but for the bottom skirt below the flange where it bolts on to the crank case, this area is slightly more worn.

I guess it is where the piston thrust has worn more than the rest of the cylinder.

Is this a critical issue?

I will get photos to help with interpretation of my wording and post tomorrow   

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2013, 01:13:55 AM »
Automotive waterborne paints are applied much in the same way as any solvent based product with the following notes to keep in mind.

Enamel is just a word used for a paint that doesn't leave brush marks when applied correctly, it does not matter what the chemical basis of the paint is. Enamel is the term used for the old baked enamel look we used to be familiar with and see on cast iron items, stoves, pots and mugs etc.

Don't use waterborne paints through your old solvent spray gun, get an HVLP that is designed for water borne, and don't mix the two types of paint between guns, the waterborne paint will ruin your old gun by attaching its self to minute particles of paint not able to be cleaned out of the glands etc delivering them to your job and your old gun will rust internally.

Waterborne paint has a slightly thinner finish build so will tend to show imperfections in your preparation more so than urethane's or alkyd's (common oil/solvent based paints )

You can't thin your waterborne automotive coating with water, you need the manufacturers thinner/reducer.

You can't clean up with soap and water and you have toxic waste to dispose of with waterborne paint just like any other.

You need lots of airflow and heat to cure a base coat, it will not air dry well in your neck of the woods!

You still need to apply a solvent based clear coat over the water borne base coat, the single pack enamel will have a high gloss but will be moisture sensitive, test your substrate by wiping part of it with a wet cloth (assuming it has not been sandblasted) if the water evaporates dry within ten minutes it is ok to paint it. (same for all painting)

Waterborne automotive paints are only slightly softer when fully cured than solvent based.

Waterborne paint is less toxic than most solvent paints but has toxic compounds in it and should still be treated as toxic, personal protection is just as important when spraying especially.

Waterborne paints have been developed because of the environment and do not necessarily represent the latest technology in adhesion and UV, but represent the latest technology in Waterborne automotive paints in line with the desired reduction of VOC's and paint waste. Waterborne paints main advantage is lack of VOC's released to the atmosphere during application and cure process, apart from that it is made up of mostly the same base materials as solvent based paint.

If you are doing DIY work at home stick to what you know, water borne is not home handyman friendly yet.
 
Read the instructions and spray as normal, don't buy cheap paint! (mind-you, you probably can't buy cheap water borne!)

I know you said three sentences but this is a restrained as I can be! :D 

 




« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 04:50:52 AM by Kiwi »

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #97 on: March 03, 2013, 08:57:50 PM »
R,

I have to confess I have made a bit of a fool of my self with the over size bore comments, I went back to the machinist to get his comments on the bores and he told me I had miss read his notes. The cylinders will re-bore to .060 inch over size, enough said.

One question, It has been suggested to me by a motor cycle restorer shop in Brisbane that I should try to get GPM pistons if possible rather than Hepolite, are you familiar with GPM's? and is the advice well founded in your view? the shop rep seemed to think the GPM's were superior as they were made with better materials, I know nothing about either.

Regards

Kiwi


Offline Rex

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2013, 09:26:33 PM »
I had a set of GPM's in a Triumph twin. Seemed OK (made in Italy if I remember right) but I'd have Hepolites through choice as they've always been good in my experience. Just my opinion though.

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2013, 10:53:39 PM »
There has been discussion of Hepolites lately.
They are now made in Taiwan, (formerly known as ____ ?) and someone bought the Hepolite name to add  to them.
If the shop has good experience of GPMs, they have been around a while.

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #100 on: March 03, 2013, 10:55:15 PM »
P.S. Can cylinders be resleeved once they are bored to +0.060 ??

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2013, 01:40:32 AM »
P.S. Can cylinders be resleeved once they are bored to +0.060 ??

I wonder if they can? It seems there will only be about .060 inch left in the skirt!

Is sleaving now a better option maybe?

I have posted some photos of the head for comments on condition and steps to avoid maybe? I am going to replace the guides and seats, is there anything special about replacing either I need to be on the lookout for? I plan to use guide material locally sourced.

The crank as it came out, it measures perfectly at +.030.

It seems every single nut and bolt on the bike has been attacked with a shifting spanner, in fact I think it was once re-built with one 12" spanner!

Cheers

Kiwi 

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2013, 06:39:01 AM »
The crank would be at -0.030 ?
It MUST be dismantled and the sludge trap cleaned out - or engine failure from blocked oilways is always possible.
Don't clean it out, and then grind/polish the journals !!

What do the valves look like ?
Make sure the shop doing this has done Norton guides before, or they will almost certainly screw it up.
Hard to tell what those seats look like.
You need a VERY experienced shop to get those right.
And unless absolutely worn out, best left alone. ?

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2013, 08:44:02 PM »
Yes -.030  :-[

The crank doesn't need grinding but I will split it and clean it. I found sludge completely blocking the Oil pressure relief valve and the oil screen under it, the bottom end of this motor was previously put back together ready to RUN! It seems the case as the big end and main bearings are all new. the owner would have a had a nasty experience.

The valves are damaged on top of the stem and the seats are recessed quite significantly, the valves have been recessing down through the seats and the inlet valves look better placed on the exhaust side.

Valve spring pressure is something I can't find in my Haynes book?

I intend to take your advice and try to find someone with Norton experience, Thanks

Regards

Kiwi


Offline chaterlea25

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #104 on: March 05, 2013, 11:59:38 AM »
Hi Kiwi,
I would firstly find some local Norton / Vintage Enthuasists in you part of the World, they will know of reputable firms that will be able to sort out your engine problems without shipping them halfway round the world, get several opinions!!!!
On the Dommy engines theres a spigot on the top of the cylinder that fits into the register in the head
When the cylinders are rebored the spigot becomes very thin and often cracks around where it meets the gasket face, It can be machined completely away and then rely on the gasket only to seal the joint
This is another consideration if you are having the cylinders resleeved
Again very hard to advise with out actually seeing and measuring up,
I would firstly  try and source some secondhand cylinders that have not been bored past the recommended max oversize
Again on the head,  find people who have had sucessful repairs before commiting the work to someone
I would have the ports blast cleaned to remove any carbon stuck to the guides before trying to remove them,
The best practice is to machine away the tops of the guides so as they can be removed towards the ports
Heat the head to 220- 240 deg C before removing and replacing guides

HTH
John