1962 Model 88; previously 1957 basket case value?

[R]

Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?

I know of several older dommies with commando filters fitted - Norton Dealers have sold them as a kit for quite some years now - and they work quite well. By all reports, not having actually tried it.

The spin-on oil filters work on the scavenge side of course, so if the pump was not up to it the scavenge side would show problems. The pressure side depends purely on the level of oil in the oil tank for its supply, and only if this got low with oil not being returned to the tank, and the sump level had surplus oil down there, would this cause a problem ??

Of course, with modern oils, if its changed regularly, any contaminants are gone.
A magnetic sump plug catching anything steel at least.
Fresh oil is cheap, engines are expensive.

[beng]

Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?

  Is that a question or a statement?

[R]

A statement, and questioning your comments.

Norvil, RGM etc have been selling filter kits for decades.
eg http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/techtalk13.htm

[beng]

Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?

 
     So you are saying that when engine rpm increases along with the rpm of the oil pump, you never saw the oil pressure on an engine go up too?
 

   

A statement, and questioning your comments.

 
     Yes, lots of shops have and will sell lots of parts for your bike. If you want you can accept what they sell on blind faith, but a good mechanic does not take things for granted, which is why if you read back a bit you will see I said just that:
 

   

     Whenever you swap or mix parts from different years it is your responsibility to do the checking on the final installation to make sure everything is getting lubed. Just because someone else has got a parts combination working, does not mean that the parts you bolt on will do the same thing. Something as simple as the size of the oil return hole in the oil tank, or the amount of wear in your oil pump could give completely different results, and with many of our parts being half a century old no one can guarantee what your parts will do for you. 

[R]

Sure, you can fit a bigger oil pump, and see more oil pressure in a worn out engine.
And there likely is some benefit in fitting a pump with more flow, which is what plain bearing motors are all about.

Norton Dealers have been selling these oil filter kits for about 40 years.
Someone would have noticed by now if they didn't work if retrofitted to earlier Nortons.
They fit all Nortons back into the 1930s even - as plenty of reports on the NOC Forum also say.
So we probably don't need to wait for you to report back to know they work ..
You seem a little behind the times ?

[beng]

     I never said late parts would not work on early bikes, I just said that when I, or any good and careful mechanics change out oil system parts they should check to make sure they are working, pretty simple and basic mechanical advice.
 
    If you don't feel the need to make sure your bike is getting oil after you do work on it's oiling system that is your business, but I would not pay you to work on anything I own.

[R]

     I never said late parts would not work on early bikes, I just said that when I, or any good and careful mechanics change out oil system parts they should check to make sure they are working, pretty simple and basic mechanical advice.

You said...

                  Unless the oil total oil system, oil passage size, pump size and pump speed, is upgraded to the post-65' spec, I would wonder if it would be overwhelmed trying to push through a cartridge filter. If I try the spin-on filter with lesser parts in the future  I will certainly report to the Norton public how it works.

Those kits have been available from Norton Dealers now for nigh on 40 years, for Commandos and Dommies.
Someone would have noticed by now if they didn't work.
We don't need your 'report' to know that !!!!

[R]

P.S. My old early dommie came with an AMC oil fiter system fitted (in the tank).
Seemed like a good idea back then, so I left it there.
From its history, this must have been pre the Commando fitting an oil filter system.

This filter is removeable and washable, and you can inspect whats in it.
So in some respects is better than the spin-on type of Commando filter ?
Does nothing for originality though...

[wetdog]

these twins are not really my thing but is not the oil pressure controlled via a release valve set for buy pass ? the larger vol pump is there to move more oil and so remove more heat keeping the motor cooler , and helping to maintain a minimum pressure , fitting a oil pressure guage to some british bikes is quite scarry , ive seen 20psi on a very hot 76 bonnie , I had to stop

[R]

The very early Norton dommies had an oil pressure gauge fitted in the tank.
Calibrated to 160 psi, it must be said - but with an oil pressure relief valve, like you say.
So the pressure was limited to 40 psi max, except when cold - when the oils in those days was somewhat thick.

Oil gauge showed some scary low values, and Nortons answer was to delete it for the swingarm models. !
The engines ran quite well of course, and didn't seem to mind low pressures.
The oil tank doesn't get particulary hot, even on these iron engines, so the oil does little with respect to heat removal ?
Except around the exhaust valve, when every little bit helps.

It was the scavenge-fed oil supply to the head that was somewhat lacking, the oiling being somewhat intermittent.
This showed up as sometimes rapid wear of cams and cam followers, due to little oil coming down the pushrod tunnels.
And also of rockers and valve guides.
It wasn't until the pressure fed oiling to the head for 1964 (was it ?) that this was corrected.
And the real reason for the bigger oil capacity oil pump, since pressure oiling the head would otherwise have taken pressure/volume away from the big ends...

[wetdog]

how did they pressure feed the head ? to many british bikes just had a T off the return , I regularly put my finger over the end to force more to the top end .

[R]

I regularly put my finger over the end to force more to the top end .

As the manual indeed recommends.
Keeps the debris (inc carbon) blocking up the flow path to the rockers and valves.
Probably why the flow sometimes just wasn't enough.

Pressure feed was done simply by plumbing the feed out of the timing cover - and from the oil feed to the crank.
And redoing the shafts and drillings in the head so that flow wasn't unlimited, so maintained some pressure with some flow.

Nortons had redone the scavenge side oil feed to the head, several times, and there is mention on the NOC Forum that the Navigator (was it ?) type fittings give the most reliable system for adequate flow into the head.

[beng]

Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?

 Hey R. Since anyone who has ever owned an engine with an oil pressure gauge knows that oil pressure goes up with rpm.  Can you tell us why an expert like yourself would not know that?

[R]

C'mon Ben, anyone who knows anything about oil and hydraulics (and pneumatics) knows that RESTRICTING that flow is what gives it PRESSURE.  No restriction = no pressure, only flow....

Its like volts and amps with electrickery.
Or a garden hose flowing water with an open end, or with a sprinkler attached.

Norton singles work with essentially that same gear oil pump (only a near mirror image), and they give purely FLOW - into a roller bearing motor. Putting an oil pressure gauge on it will probably show near zero pressure. The little tell-tale oil pop up on prewar Nortons must work on all of about 2 psi ??

But then, if you didn't know that oil filters work on Nortons, and they have been on the market for 40 years, maybe you haven't been around Nortons much ?

[R]

P.S. Motorcycle lube systems are often quoted in gallons per hour.
That is a flow rate, is it not ?

A Vincent twin is quoted at 4 gals per hour, think that was at 55 mph.
That was considered quite a lot, for its era.
A Norton Commando was 15 gals per hour, although at a slightly higher speed ?
A Suzuki Gixxer is quoted at 30 (?) gals per hour, probably at a fair rate of knots.
Thats a gallon every 2 minutes...

Some of these are roller bearing motors, and some are plain bearing motors.
Obviously, their demands vary, somewhat.
And some have more bearings than others...