Sorting out a Norton Inter project

[Bomber]

It's very interesting indeed, I would love to know the bikes history

[wetdog]

"Thats the dodgiest frame number" ......... ive seen a lot worse , ariel and norton frame numbers on head stock is a favorate , i think mostly down to number plate dealing , but now they accept a plate stuck to the frame (so im told of course) this may stop origional frames being bucherd

[R]

, i think mostly down to number plate dealing , 

That might be getting closer to the mark.
Didn't ClassicBike or someone show a frame with 20 or 30 numbers stamped into it !

I'll post photos of the lighter tank mounting brackets later.

Those lighter/sculpted tank brackets may just be stock ES2 style postwar brackets.
What else used them may need some researching.
Inters used something different ?  Heavier/thicker, or detachable, etc ?
And the one at the right rear was higher, to clear the carb. ?

Inter girder forks were narrower than what the 16h etc used, what is the width between fork blades where the front hub sits ?

[cardan]

More photos attached.

Yes I'm starting to think it could be a 1952 Inter or ES2 frame with the prefix (G11 or G4) carefully removed, and of course fitted with a girder front end. But I'd still like to be sure!

I've taken the engine and gearbox out of the frame and looked at all the lugs. The only obvious stamped number is the one on the front engine mount lug. It looks clean and unmolested.

Can anyone comment on (a) the frame number location and (b) the style of tank mounts on a 1952 ES2 or Inter?

The motor was purchased about 15 years ago specifically to go into the frame, which was thought at the time to be pre-war Inter. Perhaps not! Pity, because it sure does look nice!

Leon

[wetdog]

did you get this frame in the last two weeks , did you get any teles with it ?

[Bomber]

I think its almost certainly an Inter frame by the angle of the plungers. I have an ES2 with the same tank brackets, obviously common to both.

[Bomber]

Of course the most erudite man to ask is George Cohen at http://www.norton.uk.com/, if he doesn't have answers I would be shocked

[R]

The NOC Records Officer could tell what those numbers left the factory as.
Anyone in the NOC to ask him ?

Those tank mounts sure look ES2.
Inters have one or more as detachable in the parts book ?., and have the right rear one higher up for the carb ??

However, that gearbox mount for 1952 would not be for the upright box if an ES2.
But an Inter would still use an upright box - and that top mount.

Does that engine have a screw-in inlet stub.
Or a 2 bolt flange mount for the carb ?

Curiouser and curiouser...

[R]

There are no casting marks or identifiers on the plunger rear suspension castings.
They are identical, so one should have the marks inside and one outside.
Unless they have been ground off ?

[john.k]

The frame number is stamped on the left side of the front tank mount on postwar models,sometimes so faintly as to be visible only after sandblasting.Registration authorities would often refuse to believe that such an amateurish effort was really the proper number.The number you have shown is the engine mount casting/part number.Your frame must be 46/47/48 /49 (upright box) if from a tourer,with the prefix A B C or D and the model number in one line.Regards John.

[cardan]

Thanks for all the comments. Still feeling a little lost, but not sure we're going to get to the bottom of this one!

A couple of answers:
No obvious casting numbers on the  plunger castings (see photo).
It looks like the horizontal parts of the rear tank mounts have been welded on. A lug (around the top tube) with two horizontal holes seems original.
Front tank mount seems unmolested.
Carby is flange mount (two studs).
The front tank mount lug really does seem to have no stampings - numbers or otherwise. I've scraped the paint off on this lug (and several others) and can see nothing. If there was a number here, I'd say it must have been intentionally removed.
Not a recent acquisition - frame has been in its current shed (in Australia) for 20+ years.

A couple of questions:
The number stamped on the frame would fit in at 1952. Did the 52 Inter still use the upright gearbox?
I assume the presence of the top gearbox lug means we can rule out 52 ES2?
Has anyone seen any Norton of the 1938 - 1952 period where the frame number is stamped horizontally on the front of the front engine mount lug?

I doubt it's worth getting the details of the bike numbered 43739 from the records when the number (stamped horizontally on the front of the front engine mount lug) seems to be in the wrong spot?

Cheers,

Leon

[Norton55]

The 1952 Inter would still have an upright gearbox. They switched over to the laydown gearbox on the Inter when they introduced the featherbed frame in 1953. All the other singles had the laydown gearbox from 1949 along with the Model 7 twin. I've checked the front tank mounts on my 1951 ES2 and they look like the one on the 1948 Inter frame. My 1947 Model 18 frame is the closest I've found to having those sort of front tank mounts. Of my many plunger framed Nortons (all postwar Inters, ES2s & Model 7s), the frame number has always been on the left side front tank mount lug and it is the same on the few 1930's Nortons I have, so it is very intriguing to have a number on the front engine mount lug.

It might be worth a try to contact John from http://www.vintagenorton.com/ as he has been very helpful with with my pre-war Nortons. He might be able to identify the frame if its pre-war and he might be able to give more insight into the engine as well.

[Bomber]

Yes the Inter stuck with the dolls head gearbox whilst the pushrod singles used laydown boxes

[cardan]

Thanks again - on my way home today. I guess the issue is whether the parts stay together as a project or whether it's best to split them up. That decision will have to wait until I get the best id I can for the frame - tricky one!

Leon

[R]

I doubt it's worth getting the details of the bike numbered 43739 from the records when the number (stamped horizontally on the front of the front engine mount lug) seems to be in the wrong spot?

It would at least confirm if this number is correct ot not though ?
And what it was built as.

Be a disaster to split them up if they were in fact a matched engine and frame.
Stranger things have happened at sea ?
Nortons lugged frames were a bit known for cracks and breaks, so who knows what has happened in the past that may have needed repairs, this may be such a result ?