Please help identify villiers powerd motorcycle

[dean66]

Here is a bike that I brought sometime ago.  I need help resolving the identity of this machine.  It has grease nipples top and bottom on upside down forks.  Front drum brake (missing), villers powered 198cc two stroke. Once i have identity i can see what spares are available and make a plan.

Any help you can provide would be very helpful.

Cheers  dean

[R]

Looks like its going to be something along the lines of a Francis Barnett trials or competition bike ?

This is not exactly the same, but something close. ?
This is said to be circa 1950, but its more likely later. Yours too, but not as later ?
http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett/images/Francis-Barnett_1950c_NV2.jpg

Very popular in their day, for budding compy riders.
And much more manageable than the big bangers !?

Oddly, it was that fuel tank cap that instantly brought FB to mind.
A lot of bikes back then shared a lot of parts, you may find many common to other makes.
The engine and gearbox in particular, and probably forks and wheels and brakes too.

[wink]

At last a proper bike instead of all this Triumph, Norton, BSA etc porridge. Something you can get stuck into without having to worry if the sidelight bulb is original.

[rogerwilko]

Don't kid yourself, i'ts just another bowl of porridge.

[33d6]

The front forks are James, the seat is BSA and I think the the frame is Fanny Bee. In other words a perfectly normal brew up of parts that many of us would put together in the 1960's-70's so we could go racing at minimal cost (and even then at zero cost it was still more than we could afford)
Machines like yours can be made into sweet little green-laners that will hold up their head in any company in a range of events. Being a Villiers engine bits are readily available at sane prices and giving it a working lighting system is a doddle.
Give us the frame and engine numbers and we will identify precisely what you have.

You're a lucky man. You have a fun bike that you can run with pocket money.

Cheers,

[R]

The front forks are James,

Not so ?
This is a 1954 Model 64 scrambles model, with 4 speed.
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb448/bessybarnett/bike3.jpg
The 3 speed version was circa 1952.
What is not so clear is if the bike being discussed is a stripped-down roadster, or the factory version ?
Anyone got a 1952 pic of the scrambles model ?

AMC owned both FB and James, we should also note.
The competition James became more and more a FB....

Incidentally, these frames were among the first with the new breed of all welded frames.
And very light with it....

[wink]

The 4 speed was an Albion box with an extension backwards at the top where the clutch arm is which would have reached the swinging arm spindle. This is the normal 3 speed. YouŽll be lucky to get a 4.00 back tyre in the arm. The primary chaincase will have a wing pattern on a 6E and 4 Ribs front to back on an 8E.

[33d6]

Fanny Bees are easily identifiable from the frame number, as are Villiers engines. All it takes is for dean66 to supply the relevant numbers and the deed is done. Whatever the Fanny Bee model it turns out to be his bike still has James forks fitted plus a power unit sporting a three speed box.
AMC acquired Francis Barnett in 1947 but didn't get James til 1951 so they were quite different machines in the early 50's before AMC steadily rationalized them. Fanny Bee introduced their swinging arm frame in 1951 whereas the best you would find on a James of that year was plungers. My current classic ride is a plunger sprung 1951 James Captain hence my familiarity with both the forks and gearbox.
Hopefully dean66 will provide the numbers soon and we can put his question to rest.

[R]

Doesn't Deans bike have these forks, minus the rubber gaiters ?

Bit hard to see what going on down there, almost looks like its an artists impression and not the real thing ?

http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett/images/Francis-Barnett_1952_advert_p39.jpg

P.S. I'm agreeing about the 3 speed box, if you read what I said.

[33d6]

If you look at the forks on deans bike you will see the wheel spindle is at the front and about two inches above the bottom of the fork.
Then look at the various Fanny Bee pictures you've cited and you will see the wheel spindle is fully at the bottom end of the fork leg.

Neither make of forks are particularly good. This was in the early days of tele forks and they are basically just pogo sticks with a wheel slung between them. Hydraulic damping on lightweights was still a few years away. The best that could be said about both makes is that they give a better ride than equivalent lightweight girder forks of the day.

I suppose I have to confess that as well as the '51 James I also have the equivalent Fanny Bee in my shed. These forks are very familiar.
Cheers,

[R]

Can't actually find a pic of a James with those forks.
Any particular year or model we should be looking for ?

[33d6]

Look on Alan Abrahams 'simply wizard' site and you will find them. www.simplywizard.co.uk These particular forks date from the early 50's and were fitted only for a few years. They were one of the first casualties of the AMC rationalization.

James went from pressed steel girders to tubular girders to Dunlop compressed rubber teles to the style we are discussing in quick succession so  initially it can be confusing until you get your head around it all.

Cheers,

[dean66]

HI there, i have found the frame number after stripping paint off the headstock. Number is   TTMS 64169B. I am still cleaning up the engine but have found a stamp saying L84 on the rear engine mounting point, no sure about this but will keep looking.

Cheers dean.

Bye the way im not hoping i have something unique here cos im sure it isnt but am doing this as a project with my 14 yo son. Bit of fun and a learning exercise for him.

[33d6]

Hi Dean.
Good to hear from you again. You'll be pleased to know that the TTMS prefix on the  frame number you quote dates from 1953 and definitely identifies it as a Francis Barnett frame. The B suffix after the number was used to show it was painted Blue by the factory. In those days most Fanny Bees were black but some were blue. Yours was a blue one.
The TTMS prefix was used on two 1953 models that shared the same frame. These were the 1953 Falcon series II road bike fitted with an 8E motor (known as the Model 58) or the 1953 Falcon Scrambler competition bike fitted with a 7/4E motor (Model 64).

The engine number runs across the front engine mounting lug and the original 8E road engine used the prefix 387A while the 7/4E comp engine prefix was 374A. I can see you don't have a 7/4E engine fitted because the photo shows your bike has a three speed gearbox. Villiers engines were remarkably interchangeable so don't be surprised if your engine has a different prefix. For a long time it was much cheaper to just buy another secondhand engine from a wreckers than to rebuild a worn out engine so many Villiers powered bikes sport engines that were originally fitted to something else. It makes not an atom of difference to how the bike will run or for buying spare parts.
Cheers,
   

[dean66]

Thank you 33 d6, that is fantastic information, i will chase up the engine number and research the two models you identify. i will post to let you know how i get on

thanks again dean