Author Topic: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history  (Read 33181 times)

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #120 on: March 15, 2021, 12:50:26 AM »
Whats the difference between the ones with the stubby little tank,
and the big long tank? Was it just fashion, or was there some reason for the change.

I don't know. The stubby little tank with the flat top seemed to be fitted to most of the original wave of machines (James, Raynal, Excelsior...) in 1937, while the long tank that completely fills the frame was very popular with the Junior Deluxe models from 1939, and the little tank with the point at the top was the fashion postwar. I wonder if the tanks were supplied with the engine unit as part of the "kit"?

Leon

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #121 on: March 15, 2021, 02:18:43 AM »
This, said to be a 1931 98cc Excelsior was shown as sold recently.

https://uploads.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/excelsior/11465102.jpg

Not a bad likeness for your Excelsior advert pic ?

Peculiar that the Waratah version is so hard to find.
Depression era low sales numbers and all that ?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 02:20:58 AM by R »

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #122 on: March 15, 2021, 05:32:42 AM »
That's a bit shinier than the original in 1939! Pity the radius of the front guard is way too big for the wheel.

There might be a surviving Waratah Midget, but unless it survived with its original paint how would you know it was not an Excelsior?! As pretty cheap things in the early 1930s, I guess many would have survived through WW2, but after that... very scrapable!

Leon

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #123 on: March 16, 2021, 12:19:00 AM »
Well it's nice you seem to understand why I find these Great Depression Midgets more interesting than autocycles. They are motorcycles, even if rather feeble ones, not powered bicycles.
Several factories made them, Coventry Eagle, Dot, Excelsior, Gloria, (Triumph pseudonym), Sun and Wolf and all got through the depression years if not the war that followed.  Survival rate is better than you think and the spares situation is better than most. About the only engine parts not available off the shelf are the plain bronze bush main bearings. The Albion 2 speed box is much the same with the only ball race in the box being a common metric size number 6204.

I believe the trick is restore them realistically. To the standard they came from the factory. These were the cheapest motorcycles the trade ever built. To my mind that carandclassic Excelsior is wildly over restored. I find that level of restoration misses the point. Charterhouse Auctions had a far closer to original interpretation of the same Model 0 Excelsior for sale last year. Lot 238 in their August sale last year. I don't know if you can still access it on line.

Mostly these Midget powered bikes were offered in the 1931-35 period. Villiers introduced their 123cc 8/9D 3 speed  unit construction engine in 1936 at much the same price as the Midget/ Albion gearbox combo and more or less swept the Midget powered bike away overnight. Midget engines still sold well in other areas. For example, most that turn up today are ex-lawnmower. 

Researching these little beastie was part of my Covid 19 lockdown entertainment. I was surprised at how much I turned up and how many survivors there are. They have survived just as well as any other bike of their times. 




Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #124 on: March 17, 2021, 12:16:54 AM »
I think we'll have to find you the remains of a Waratah Midget!!

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #125 on: March 17, 2021, 03:56:24 AM »
Just bolt it into one of these kit 'boardtracker' motorcycles. ?
A quick coat of colour if you don't like non-indian red ...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/b6AAAOSwRJ1gHeAK/s-l1600.jpg

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #126 on: March 17, 2021, 03:58:56 AM »
Wash my mouth out with soap ...

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #127 on: March 17, 2021, 07:07:58 AM »
Fitting the 2 speed box is the tricky bit.

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #128 on: March 17, 2021, 09:15:22 AM »
Would it bolt in a Bantam frame.
There's that mouth again.

I keep coming back to this ...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/New_Hudson_98cc_Autocycle_-_Flickr_-_mick_-_Lumix.jpg

Utterly impractical I know, and someone has spent lots on this one too.

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2021, 12:38:48 PM »
New Hudson. The BSA equivalent of the Gloria. What was it about BSA and Triumph that they wouldn’t sell a Villiers powered machine under their own name. I suppose it was because neither ever managed to build a successful two-stroke of their own but had to use the designs of others.


Offline Rex

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #130 on: March 17, 2021, 04:34:05 PM »
More like two-strokes were always seen as the poor relation, and fit only for the district nurse to run about on.
Don't taint the gene-pool, and all that.

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #131 on: March 17, 2021, 09:27:50 PM »
Maybe.

But BSA sold a heck of a lot of Bantams.
And at some point in the 1950s, Villiers were celebrating their 2 millionth engine.

Offline Rex

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #132 on: March 18, 2021, 09:08:04 AM »
But Bantams were in the 1950s and later, so  obviously the marketing thinking changed post-war.
Given the vast industrial conglomerate that BSA was, I doubt that any marketable niches were left unexplored.
They even produced Lee Enfield rifles on licence, much to the surprise of an American gun enthusiast on YouTube who said he always thought they were made by Royal Enfield in Enfield. ;D

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2021, 11:42:17 AM »
I came across photos of two different Utility JAP motorcycles, both said to be c1938, in Mike Kingwell's book "Touring and Sporting Motorcycles in Australia 1910-1966". Both photos were taken in the Geelong area. "Full size" front forks, so are they both 500s? Rebadged Montgomery?

Leon

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2021, 03:27:20 AM »
Difficult to tell, Leon. Montgomery seemd to change the specification at the drop of a hat.I suspect it was a case of fit whatever they could get for a good price. Certainly by the late thirties they were fitting pressed steel forks and tube type girders to both their 250 and 350 models. The standard model of both got pressed steel and the de luxe model tube type. The 500 seemed to get tube type on both standard and de luxe. So those bikes could be of any capacity but I assume either 350 or 500. They seem a little too hefty for a 250.
Then again they used some components across the range. For example the rear wheel mounted in the same fork lug on everything throughout the range. It does look a little overdone on my little beast. Not only that the lug had a protrusion each side for the chain adjuster. They just bashed the unwanted protrusion off to majke it either a left hand or right hand lug. They did not clean off the remains.
In close up the Montgomery is not elegant!!