Author Topic: Troubleshooting a JAP Special  (Read 226704 times)

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #240 on: August 06, 2026, 08:29:32 AM »
I have been following your rebuild with interest, and would like to make one comment. The hose clamps you are using are squashing the crap out of the rubber hoses and I think maybe letting some drips of oil leak out. I always use the full band type on soft rubber hoses. Yes, they may be a few coins dearer to buy but they dont smash the hose and are easy to reuse.
https://valvewarehouseaustralia.com.au/products/norma-gbs-stainless-steel-hose-clamp-heavy-duty-t-bolt-w2
Enjoy the rest of the ride.

Interesting.   

The Jubilee clips seem to be doing a good  job at the moment in terms of sealing, and I take the point that they appear to be squashing the hose significantly.  I think the fitted hoses are particularly soft (the wall thickness is huge on them) though, which may be giving a slightly false impression of over-crushing.

I would point out that the Norma clips only go down to 17mm-19mm... that's too large for most of the hoses on this bike, they're not more than about 12-13mm outer diameter. 

I use Norma style clips on the Exhaust clamp though, and they work very well.  (I also have a couple of more modern BMW bikes, which use Norma clips on the exhausts).  I believe they have a limited range of hose capacity (which is why there's so many sizes on offer).

Offline murdo

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #241 on: August 06, 2026, 08:36:53 AM »
The Norma ones are just to show the type I use. They make them for use on car EFI systems so they can be got in smaller sizes.

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #242 on: August 06, 2026, 09:43:31 AM »
The Norma ones are just to show the type I use. They make them for use on car EFI systems so they can be got in smaller sizes.

Gotcha, something to look at as a finishing touch, got bigger problems right now.

Offline Rex

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #243 on: August 06, 2026, 06:19:24 PM »
As an aside, I always use Jubilee/worm drive clips when the bike is still in the "fannying around with" stage as then are easily removed if required.

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #244 on: August 06, 2026, 10:07:53 PM »
Are we sitting comfortably children?  Then I'll begin....

This is a tale of an evil motorbike and all the grief that it caused to it's innocent rider...


Ahem...

I did some research today and wandered over to the workshop with a lot of information about clutches and gearboxes and other wonderous things.

I'd read on the Andover Norton pages that they sometimes do compression checks when the engine is cold, so I thought I'd give that a go and see what the difference might be to hot.


SFA.

90psi again.

The follow up test is to pour some oil into the head, to see if that makes any difference: if it makes a significant difference, then it's likely that the rings are knackered.


Not really sure what to hope for...
But that isn't really much of a difference.

the next test is to confirm the valves aren't tight, which means taking the valve covers off, and the primary case so I can rotate the engine more easily.

Hmmm - those streaks look ominous....


I found TDC, and ... err...
That ain't tight.



The inlet valve has gone VERY loose, that's got to be affecting the timing, if nothing else!

The exhaust doesn't "look" too bad.


I reset the valve clearances to 0.002"


And gave it another 10 kicks



hmmmmmm.


Time for some prevarication.   I decided to take the tank off to give me better access to the head, but in the meantime....
The oil tap lever has always bothered me, it's just too long and prone to getting caught on things.
So I took an inch or so off it...


Once I had the tank off I got a better look at the valves, they're definitely getting oil, which is a good thing.




So, while I pondered the lack of compression pressure....

I turned to the clutch and realised something.

I've always wondered exactly what the $%^&& this tool was for....


Clever!


Obviously, being one of my Dad's tools, it wasn't quite right, the gap between the prongs was too small, and I realised that it was actually damaging the thread on the clutch stud!!
So I performed some remedial work with a file, and it now fits a lot better.

I also realised that the effing big screwdriver I've got with a matching handle was ideal for quickly removing the clutch spring nuts once they're "up" enough to clear the studs
Do you even screwdrive bro?


yeah... not great


The first friction plate (which is one sided), is oily as feck


The innermost steel was gungy as feck, old congealed oil??


I realised that the primary chain would need to come off, so...


There's another one-sided friction plate which is the innermost part of the clutch assembly
I initially thought this was some sort of custom racing job from Mick Hemmings, but then realised I hadn't quite understood the diagrams of Norton clutches that I'd been looking at (it doesn't help that the manual I found online deals with BOTH the "heavy" twins (Dominators etc) AND the "light" twins (the 250-400s), which have a different clutch assembly.  I think the manual is one that assumes a LOT of prior knowledge on the part of the reader....


The clutch push rod was lightly oily... I understand from my reading that this can happen, but shouldn't really be the case.


Apparently some people machine a slot or two into the push rod and fit o-rings... which might be a doable mod.


The disassembled clutch plates laid out in order.  The innermost friction plates are dry (if a tad rusty :wtf: ) so I'm hoping that this oil issue is just a build up over time, rather than a bad leak. (I may have overfilled it...)


I pulled out the clutch holding tool I had stashed away...
but..

nope, that ain't gonna fly. Bah!


I borrowed some E5 from the tank to soak the springs and cups etc


Then made a start on cleaning the plates


But soon got very bored with that, and took another look at the cush drive assembly that was still on the bike.

These came out pretty easily...
and they're manky



The "cush drive" in situ


Eventually found a socket to fit (which I was surprised to find actually...), a 21mm "fitted", but that's a 13/16" spark plug socket. :D



Manky driveshaft and cog fitting


The clutch cush drive has a washer on the back


And a whacking great spring-washer under the nut, which was a LOT looser than I was expecting, I didn't need much effort to undo it...


I still need to get the "cush drive" apart, it's locked up solid, so it's been set to one side for now....

The nut on the gearbox sprocket is a left-hand thread, and was finger tight!


And there's a spacer behind the cog.



The cog is dished to push the chain run away from the gearbox body.


Wahay, I've got the right spanner! :D


I cleaned the cog and associated parts up and refitted them, more just so I remember where it all goes!  (It's not all tight).



I still have to clean up the rest of the clutch, and then ponder the choice I now have.

Do I need to rebuild the fecking gearbox?  I need to find out if the main seal can be replaced without splitting the box, and then decide whether or not to "live" with it for the rest of summer.  IE, rebuild the clutch and get a short bit of riding before a full winter strip down, or do the strip down now, and miss the rest of the summer?? It could be just that I overfilled the oil somewhat and some has worked it's way down the push-rod tube.  I haven't looked at that side of the gearbox yet, but that's probably something to do between clutch plates next time.

And then there's the lack of compression pressure in the engine itself.  Is that a major issue that needs fixing?  Has the head gasket gone?? That's basically the last option for a cause of the low pressure.  (Well, assuming the valves are still sealing ok, another grinding of the valve seats presumably wouldn't hurt anything I suppose..)

My current thoughts are to sleep on it and make a decision over the next couple of days.  Given the way the bike was riding before yesterday, I suspect the compression pressure hasn't actually deteriorated since the first ride, that's just the way it is, so fundamentally, it would be ok for a few more rides, and I could then do another strip down over winter.  It does seem like there's something fundamentally incorrect somewhere though.  It just seems wrong to get less than 100 miles out of the bike between rebuilds!

I'll very likely order up a head gasket anyway (I don't have a spare), while I'm thinking about it and cleaning the clutch plates.

I WAS thinking of soaking them in petrol to get rid of the oil, (I'm sure of read of that being an old method for cleaning clutch plates), but I've not found anything yet about the best way to clean them.

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2026, 08:36:23 PM »
Dull one tonight.

Just cleaning the clutch mostly.

..


Obviously there's still photos! :D

Plates and accoutrements set for some BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT


Cleaning the basket in petrol, I also brushed the hub off with petrol



Brass brushing the plates (the BZZZZZZZZZZZT got a lot of the "fresh" oil off I think, but there's still a lot of ancient gunge.


I should point out that these are definitely modern items, they're sintered bronze, like brake pads (which a huge amount of sense if you think about it - brakes and clutches are basically the same thing, just doing opposite jobs)

This is preying on what's left of my mind...


The only way that adjustment can be SOO at the end of it's range is if
a) the push rod has shortened...
b) the valve has shortened...

neither of which seem terribly likely....

or c) the rocker arm has bent!

Or maybe d), the cam follower has bent!

Basically... SOMETHING has got shorter, which is why the valve-clearance opened up... but for it to open up nigh on over a millimetre in 60 miles...

I'm beffuddled.

The basket and hub seem to have cleaned up nicely, I still haven't been able to split the hub out (to check the cush-drive rubbers), but sod it. If they're holding the thing together that hard, they're obviously still pretty solid.


I am slightly concerned though because one of the studs is slightly loose, and I can't see how to tighten it up...

Nice clean accoutrements.


3 Clean plates.... got this far and my hands started to ache,


The rest are separated to let the moisture get trapped


 so giving it a rest for the night.  Have a good weekend all. :)

Offline cardan

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #246 on: August 09, 2026, 01:45:01 AM »
Worth keeping an eye on the tappet clearance: if it moves more you'd better investigate. If it doesn't move, it's not unusual to see hardened steel caps (think shallow bucket) on top of the valve stems to increase the effective length of the valve. With the rocker arm acting directly on the end of the valve stem it's important that the stem is hard enough to stop it either wearing or mushrooming.

Leon

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #247 on: August 09, 2026, 10:18:40 AM »
Worth keeping an eye on the tappet clearance: if it moves more you'd better investigate. If it doesn't move, it's not unusual to see hardened steel caps (think shallow bucket) on top of the valve stems to increase the effective length of the valve. With the rocker arm acting directly on the end of the valve stem it's important that the stem is hard enough to stop it either wearing or mushrooming.

Leon

It's already got steel valve caps fitted both sides, they were there when i started the strip down.

The little buggers have an annoying habit of sticking to the rocker and then falling off when you're trying to get the timing right!

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #248 on: August 09, 2026, 09:08:19 PM »
I managed quite a session today, buckle up folks fair and foul, this is going to be a long one!

First order of business was to check out the studs on the clutch hub, one of them was slightly loose and was trying to figure out if there was anything I could do about it.

I spent some time on the Andover Norton shop web site, it's great, lots and lots of diagrams, and information, including half-decent photos of every component.  I've no idea exactly what my clutch is, but I'm pretty sure it's late '50s-'60s so I started there. 
This is the standard spring stud :


As you can see (hopefully), there's a flat on one side of it.
This image is a bit clearer: (it's a "Manx" clutch stud, but I don't think there's much difference)
.

So - the stud is keyed.  That means that I can tighten it up with the nut on the reverse side!


So I did


A good start! :D

Now that washer behind the hub doesn't align centrally... but I think it's close enough.


I then whipped off the drive sprocket to clean up the threads for the locking washer


And fitted it. Did the nut up as tight as I could (the spanner kept slipping off because of the dished cog), fitted the lockwasher and got on with the chain.


I tried fitting the chain connector, but putting the spring back on was prooving awkward, I wonder why...


Well, that would explain that...


So I dug out the tobacco tin full of chain bits...


and had a furtle..

EVENTUALLY... I found something that would have to do...


The plates on the new connector are a tad wider, but the pins and the gap between them are correct.


I initially fitted the new connector with the original plate... but it looked like there'd be too much movement, so I ditched that idea.


So I fitted the connector plate with the plate that it came with, and it fitted ok.

However.. it was a tad tight on the clearance to the clutch hub,




I must have faffed about for an hour or more trying to reconcile the drive chain clearance and the clutch hub, with that washer behind the clutch hub apparantly not giving the required clearance.  I even dug out a thicker washer, but that didn't help either.

One odd thing I found was that if I did up the clutch hub nut tight... the entire gearbox locked up, which made no sense.

I faffed and faffed.... pulled the clutch hub off and put in on again with different washers etc etc...

then eventually realised that, after a long and confused perusal of lots of diagrams and workshop manuals (which, as said previously, were less than clear).... that the $%^&&ing washer wasn't supposed to be there!

There's NO menting ANYWHERE that I could find of a washer being fitted behind the clutch hub.

If you look at this photo, the gearbox input shaft with the visible splines on it, runs inside the output shaft.  They both rotate in the same direction, but at different speeds (dependant on the magic that happens inside the gearbox). 


The clutch hub is also supplied with splines,


(obviously), but the key thing is that they're cut to a specific depth, so when the hub is pushed onto the splined shaft, and pushed up tight: IT'S IN THE RIGHT PLACE. It's tight on the shaft, but it's NOT so far up the input shaft that it interferes with the output shaft. 


The $%^&&ing washer was locking the two shaft together!!  Once I realised this I spent a very confused half an hour or so trying to fathom why on earth that washer had been fitted.

Eventually I gave up and fitted the sodding hub without it, the gearbox moves freely and easily!


Unfortunately... the new chain connector spit link now interfered with the clutch hub!!
The chain is a thin-plate thing and "just" clears the clutch hub - but the split link has longer pins than the rest of the chain, so it just catches the clutch hub.

So I ...err.. refitted the thing backwards.


IE with the spring-clip on the "inside" of the chain run, the spring clip is still swimming in the right direction... it's just going to be an absolute !"£%^% to get off again...

But it clears the clutch hub. :D


I nearly forgot to fit the cush drive screws.


Then went back to cleaning the rest of the clutch plates.


As I think I said, they're sintered metal plates, not cork, so need to be clean and kept dry.
Eventually I got them all done,
Hopefully they're all in the same order and orientation, I tried to keep them the same: apparently they "set" a bit like brake pads do.


Then I tidied up the adjuster screw in the pressure plate


Including cutting the slot a bit deeper



Much better!


Before I completed the clutch refit, I turned to the gearbox to have a think about this issue of oil apparantly getting down the clutch push-rod tube.

Firstly I realised that the inspection cover must be an aftermarket item...


Because there's no breather hole in it


There's supposed to be a pinhole to allow the gearbox pressure to equalise as it gets hot and cold.  Without it, the only pressure relief passage that the gearbox has is the clutch push rod tube...



I've been doing some research and there's 2 fixes for this issue that are generally agreed upon (at least within the Norton Owners Club anyway....)

Fit a breather tube to the gearbox to allow pressure equalisation by a different passage, and/or modify the push rod to carry one or two o-rings to prevent the oil getting to the clutch.

I've decided to do both. 

So - I first dug out a few o-rings to see if I had anything reasonably close to the size.
This is a tad large.


but I have a few more...


closer


Maybe too small?



Eventually I found something close, and started the cut the small channels in the push-rod.
The clearance between the push rod and the gearbox mainshaft is minimal, and the o-ring mustn't interfere too much with the movement of the push rod, so the o-ring needs to protruce from the surface of the o-ring by only a tiny amount.

Which means cutting the little channels is going to be a "little bit, and check" "repeated and often," sort of job, which is why it's still not finished!

I'm doing the cutting by putting the push-rod into the drill and applying a very small file to it as it rotates.  The file is ~1.22mm wide, and the channel should be "around" 0.7mm deep, which is going to depend muchly on the o-rings I think.

This is roughly what 0.75mm looks like compared to the thickness of the rod.



While I was faffing with this process, I inadvertently lost an o-ring in the sodding shaft.


??

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #249 on: August 09, 2026, 09:08:35 PM »

I can't really leave that there... so I made a start on getting into the right side of the gearbox, which I need to do to fit the breather anyway.

First I drained the oil, which is a messy process made worse by the location of the drain hole, and the scissor lift under the frame rails!


I then spent at least an hour and a half trying to get the sodding kickstart lever off the splines


I bashed hell out of the thing with the Thor


But it wasn't shifting..  I messed and messed and EVENTUALLY managed to get an extractor onto it.


If still fought and I had to reset the extractor a few times!

The outer cover came off easily, and oddly wasn't fitted with a gasket... weird.


The clutch lever is still nicely aligned, I don't need to change that. The black mark on the case I marked in alignment with the cable entry hole (which sits in the outer cover)


And that's where I left it for the evening, knackered now.


I don't like leaving all the tools and bits all over the place, tbh.






Oh, and that o-ring?? it was on the sodding floor all the time!  :roll:  :roll:  :lol: