Identify Motorcycle with villiers engine...

[freddy]

Hello guys! i hope somebody can help me out! I found this beautiful new motorcycle in my granfathers workshop... Ive seen the frame and tank before but i didnt know the engine was there, I almost cried when i found this little villiers 125 engine under a bunch of old crap .it will be great to know what motorcycle it is and anything about it...       thanks !

[m3bobby]

Hello guys! i hope somebody can help me out! I found this beautiful new motorcycle in my granfathers workshop... Ive seen the frame and tank before but i didnt know the engine was there, I almost cried when i found this little villiers 125 engine under a bunch of old crap .it will be great to know what motorcycle it is and anything about it...       thanks !

I think its a Excelsior Universal model, but I'm not 100% sure as the frame is a little different.

[freddy]

could be a monet goyon?

[33d6]

This is a fun one. That 9D Villiers engine was extremely popular and was used by literally dozens of manufacturers in its day. It ran from 1935 to 1948 so we at least have a rough date for the bike.
Several makers favoured the backwards facing exhaust style in the late '30's including Wolf, Pride&Clarke and Excelsior. That particular style looks very much like that favoured by Excelsior as does the petrol tank, but as mentioned above , the frame is slightly different so who knows.
Could I suggest very carefully using some fine wet and dry paper on the tank to look for the makers transfer. Sometimes they leave a faint shadow that you can read if you slowly and carefully take off the surface rust. If you rub too hard you go straight through the shadow so gently does it. Otherwise how about finding the frame number and we see what we can work out from that.
Cheers,

[freddy]

hey ill do that! thanks for your help

[freddy]

i couldnt find nothing... neither the frame number... where could it be?

[33d6]

Usually frame numbers are stamped somewhere either on the lug that makes up the head stem and front down tube or the lug under the saddle. Those are the most common places. Manufacturers preferred to stamp on the lugs because they are much stronger than the frame tubes and wouldn't collapse when hit with a stamp.
Remember that frame numbers are there for various authorities to check the bike isn't stolen or you paid your tax etc, etc, so they are usually in a place that is that is easy for them to see without getting down on their hands and knees (ever seen a policeman or bureaucrat willing to get their hands or knees dirty?). Notice I said usually, some makers stamped their frames in very awkward places.
On occassion when I've had trouble finding a number like you are I've had the frame sandblasted and that usually makes the number very obvious.
Cheers,  

[freddy]

im going to do that... thanks for your help!!!!!!

[Rick_Parkington]

My guess is thirties Excelsior or forties Norman, they are practically the same. Norman frame number is numbers only - eg 123 but the Excelsior incorporated the model name which is O prefixed by a letter relating to year - eg HO/ 1234, JO/1234 etc. The postwar (1946) Excelsior had a gearchange gate (slot) up through the centre of the tank which I presume this doesn't have.

[harry]

Hi,what is the engine number? If it is post war villiers allocated batches of engines in number sequence to individual manufacturers so it might be possible to trace the maker that way.let me have the number and I will do a search.Harry.

[freddy]

i would really appreciate that!! ill give you the engine number tomorrow as soon as i get to my workshop!! thanks harry

[freddy]

engine numbers... 364/18059  and B3833

[33d6]

The prefix 364 on the engine denotes an engine supplied to Norman in the period 1946-48'
The usual book people refer to for this type of information is  Villiers Singles & Twins by Roy Bacon. It is very good but he makes it very clear he could not find a complete list of all Villiers identification numbers and this is one of those that is'nt in his book. In fact he even makes a small error claiming Norman used the prewar and wartime 9D prefix of AAA. Villiers stopped using AAA for their postwar 9D, and included them in their complicated postwar system which you need to read Bacon extensively to understand. Villiers didn't make identification of their engines an easy task!!
Luckily the Police in my home state in Australia erected their own list of engine numbers for their own mysterious policeman reasons. That list includes some of the Villiers numbers Mr Bacon couldn't find and I have a copy of it.
I'm pleased to tell you that your engine was supplied to Norman and that Normans did a bit of badge engineering and also sold the Norman out here as the Roamer. an identical bike except for the tank transfer.
It would appear you have a 46-48 Norman.
Best of luck with it.
Cheers,

[freddy]

thanks a lot!!! i will sleep better now that i know what is it... Im in Argentina, south america, so it will be very hard to find everithing that i need for her, but ill do whatever it takes to put it toghether...thanks again to all of you for the help!!!this motorcycle is very important for me...

[33d6]

Hi again Freddy,
Restoration shouldn't be as hard as you think. Like many motorcycle firm as of the time Norman didn't make all their own parts but in a lot from outside firms. For example I know they were using British Hub Company wheels in 1950 as a friend has a 1950 Norman and I would expect your bike to have British Hub Co wheels also.
The first thing to do is gather as much information as you can and the best place to start is at the Vintage Motor Cycle Club library. You don't have to be a member to use their services. You can email them at library@vmcc.net and ask for a list of whatever they can find, catalogues, handbooks, pictures, advertisements, roadtests, etc, etc, and go from there. As I mentioned above I live in Australia and have found them very helpful so I don't think you living in Argentina will trouble them one bit.
Keep in touch, there are a lot of us willing to help if we can.
Cheers,