Help to ID this springer fork set and part bike frame

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi guys and galls. Hope your all keeping well ?  Anyway can anyone help me ID this set of forks and part frame. Im hoping the frame will go along way to the make as its a bit unusual as its cast iron? The forks are not in as bad order as they look, still solid under the rust with a bit of pitting I will check out before I decide to use them or not on my 250 Rudge engined special I am knocking up. There is the remains in places on the forks of dark green paint, possibly military? The very old Doherty advance and retard leaver looks to have been on there for years, when did Doherty start and could this be original. The damper knob is cast alloy but the iron spindle rod is set into it and can be seen showing on the top of the damper knob. I think the handle bars were fitted with the leavers that come out of the end of the bars as there are hole in the handle bars for the front brake and clutch cable to come out of. The main thing though that hopefully will help is the cast iron frame section. A odd old set but in my eye nice looking  
 
             Cheers, Jon       

[Jonny The Goat]

More pics.

[Jonny The Goat]

2 more

[cardan]

Mmm... interesting. The two bikes I can think of with a steel backbone were the P&M Panthette of the late 1920s and the BSA, starting with the Sloper models in 1930 and running through much of the 1930s on various models. However your frame part is not from either of these. Was it found in the UK?

The Doherty lever is probably original.

Leon

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi, found in London shed clearance. I did think to myself possibly Europian but was hoping a British bike. Thought of a sloper but could not picture a frame in my head.   

[Jonny The Goat]

PS, Thanks for the mention of the Panthette. A bike I have not come across before but now after looking it up I have to say what a interesting bike. As soon as my son saw me looking at a photo of a un restored one 1/2 hour ago he said can we buy one of those. I will add it to my shopping list .

[33d6]

If this is Panthette, be aware that when the Panthette flopped P &M had large stocks of frame parts to use up and for some years afterward built a range of Villiers powered two-strokes using as much of their Panthette stock as they could. There is much more chance your frame parts belong to one of the Villiers range than anything else. Perhaps not as exciting but far more practical.
Cheers ,

[cardan]

No, it's not Panthette. I know because I have a Panthette (or Villiers 2-stroke-powered P&M) backbone in the shed, collected as a curiosity from somewhere sometime long ago. In another life I would certainly have an ABC or a Panthette.

33d6 you probably know that there was a P&M/Villiers in Victoria long ago. Is it still around? It was a nice little bike, but just a shadow of the extraordinary Panthette.

Cheers

Leon

[Jonny The Goat]

My thinking is that if the Doherty leaver is original then its a good chance the forks and frame are British Did Doherty parts get used on continental bikes back in the 20's / 30's?
      Cheers, Jon

[33d6]

Hi Leon,
No, not seen it for ages, but this is a common problem with all elderly lightweights regardless of make. They tend to mysteriously disappear for no good reason. I think it is because they demand a far higher degree of metal trades skills to restore than later stuff from the 50's on.
Most think they will be an easy restoration but as you know, they're not. With no spares available to speak of you either make it yourself or pay someone else and also as we know, most riders suffer from severe pocket paralysis and won't pay so the bits lie in a heap at the back of the garage. It's a pity but there it is.
I think there are far more old bikes out there needing a good home than we will ever know about.

[cardan]

Looking at the frame fragment again, I suspect it's not British, but mostly because I don't recognise it. The front fork is interesting, particularly the lower shackle in the region of the lower spring mount. Most unusual.

I wonder if the bike is French. The Doherty lever is from the correct period (say late 1920s  - early 1930s) and could have found its way onto a foreign bike. The French in particular used a lot of British parts in this period. That said, I've had a look and haven't found anything similar yet. One problem is that the backbone is hidden under the tank.

Leon

[Jonny The Goat]

Thanks for looking Leon and everyone. Should a answer appear let me know. Hopefully I can use the forks but will not need the frame part but would like to be able to say where its from
        Cheers, Jon

[cardan]

I had some inspired ideas which came to nought.

On the French side, I like Ultima, which had all the features of the frame and fork at different times in the 1930s. They had a huge range of models, but I admit I can't find one that has all the features together. If you're really keen, you could send your photos to the Ultima man: http://ultimalyon.jpcor.fr/

Cheers

Leon

[murdo]

Be interested to see what you end up doing with it.

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi Guys. Well I had a go Leon and sent photos to the Ultima guy. He does not think its one of them. He has said why not a British bike This was his reply to my question and the photos.
JP Corbier <jpcorbier@wanadoo.fr>
6:16 PM (3 hours ago)

to mitchell, me
Hello,

I undestand your questions about this frame.

First of all : all information I have on Ultima is on the site. I have nothing else. So if you could not find what you are looking for in the site, it means that, very likely, I can't help you. And all my comments here below are based on the documents of the site.

Well. Is this fork from an Ultima. I think not. Why ?
Ultima used to engrave the name "Ultima" on many many parts of their bikes. On your fork, I think you saw nothing of this kind (if not, you would never ask the question). Anyway, the rust may have erased all existing markings.
On your photos, I see a part from the frame which is made of forged (or cast ?) iron. I don't see this technology on any document I present on the site. All the Ultima bikes have a traditionnal frame made of welded iron tubes.
At the top of the fork, one can see an axle with two large washers at each end. On this axle, there are two star shaped washers. These are springs which make the pressure on an other washer (not visible) made of cork. This system makes a kind of amortizer for the front suspension. By trimming the nuts at both ends of the axle, it is possible to adjust the behaviour of the suspension. On no Ultima fork this arrangement is located at the top of the fork. A similar system exists, but it is located lower on the fork.
On some models of the years 1920, the fork uses a big horizontal spring to make the front suspension. Your fork looks completely different.
So my opinion - I may be wrong - is that you have something interresting, but not Ultima. It could be British. Why not ?

Regards.