Author Topic: Confirm make and model please.  (Read 548 times)

Offline Paullowe

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Confirm make and model please.
« on: March 04, 2017, 05:52:37 AM »
I believe this to be an  Excelsior Universal with D10 villiers motor. They were also rebadged in Australia as a Waratah which is were I bought it.
Can anyone confirm how I could a) confirm what it is and b) if it could be a Waratah?

Offline 33d6

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 07:21:35 AM »
Yes, it is a 10D powered Excelsior Universal. Yes, SOME were sold in Australia rebadged as a Waratah. The Williams family in Sydney who traded under various names, William Bros, and P&R Williams, etc, owned the Waratah name and it is Excelsior coming in through their firm that were rebadged. Excelsior imported by other agencies in other States were not. Various Waratah enthusiasts have tried to pin all this down but with no conspicuous success.
There is a Waratah Yahoo Group but I haven't looked in at it for a long time and there is a Waratah website running out of Sydney but it doesn't seem to have cracked the mystery either.
Your only real way of proving your bike was sold as a Waratah is to find something concrete connecting it to the Williams firm. For example. a dealers plate attached to the bike somewhere or a solid history of it always being a Sydney bike.
You could try very, very, gentle removal of the black paint on the tank and seeing if there is any remnant of the Waratah tank transfer underneath but as that was the sole thing that turns an Excelsior in to a Waratah I wouldn't worry too much. For all restoration and mechanical purposes it is an Excelsior Universal. Only when painting the tank will you need to worry about the Waratah/ Excelsior thing and Excelsior transfers are sooo much easier to find than Waratah.
Pre war Waratah are a completely different kettle of fish. They are definitely an Australian production even if assembled from British components. Post war Excelsiors are just a rebadging operation. There were often good business/commercial reasons for doing this but no real motorcycling relevance.
Tell us what you find

Offline Paullowe

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2017, 11:00:08 AM »
Will do. Did they import these to Australia as excelsiors as well as the rebadged Waratahs?

Will definitely check tank, can get the transfers here. Would it be a sin to just badge it Waratah without being sure?

Offline R

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 03:23:28 PM »
Would it be a sin to just badge it Waratah without being sure?

It will certainly muddy the waters for all future lines of enquiry if its not, and you do !

Are there any pics of this model with Waratah decals. ?
Or Waratah adverts of this model ?

Offline Paullowe

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 09:24:08 PM »
These are all can find. I hope the paints reveals the truth. My luck someone "sanded it back in history!"

Offline R

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 01:13:55 AM »
It looks like the Waratah in the adverts has the speedo in the headlight?, as does yours ?
And the Excelsior has a separate one. So you are looking good.
And its not like you are creating a model that doesn't exist anyway.

Interested to hear what you find under the paint.
Although they seem to have often done a thorough job back then,
so if its been back to bare metal you may not find anything, like you say...

Offline Paullowe

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 02:37:35 AM »
Instrument in speedo is a voltage gauge. Speedo was an option extra!!  Don't think you can speed in these 😂😂

Offline 33d6

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Re: Confirm make and model please.
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 10:03:40 AM »
It's not a voltage gauge, it's an ammeter. This was a standard fitment on Villiers engines supplied with 'rectified' lighting rather than the cheaper direct lighting.
As for your question about whether these bikes were imported into Australia as true Excelsior rather than Waratah it's the other way around, The great majority were imported as Excelsior. Only some of those imported into Sydney by P & R Williams were rebadged as Waratah. To the rest of Australia they were Excelsior. It's very much a local Sydney thing.
Basically, if you can show it has been a Sydney bike all it's life it's a fair bet it was originally badged as a Waratah. Otherwise its an Excelsior. Go back to the seller and push him hard as to where he bought the bike and who from. Then track that person down and push them. Repeat and repeat with each previous owner. It's simple enough to trace a bike back but it's slow and takes being nice to a lot of people. Meanwhile you can start the restoration process as the Waratah/ Excelsior thing only becomes important when it's time to paint the tank. For all practical restoration purposes it's an Excelsior.
Most of this means getting out and about and meeting people in person. You will get a lot of knock backs but you will also meet a lot of helpful people.
Tell us how you go.