Author Topic: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history  (Read 32821 times)

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #135 on: March 20, 2021, 11:35:44 PM »
So where would these Enfield pressed steel girders fit into the scheme of things.
Enfield like to make everything themselves (mostly) would they have bought them in ?
They are 25" c-to-c  or 27" tip to toe, so heavyweight.
Like the Montgomery, fitted to the std models, the Deluxe got tubular steel girders.

https://i.postimg.cc/1zZzMm10/Enfield-pressed-steel.jpg
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 09:17:47 PM by R »

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #136 on: March 21, 2021, 12:20:53 AM »
What year are these R? They are a bit different (holes, top headlamp bracket...) to the 1938/39 fork used on the Cottman Colt.

Leon

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #137 on: March 21, 2021, 12:45:00 AM »
They came with, but not attached to, a Model J project.
The (Deluxe) tubular fork has identical dimensions.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2gUtKGsThNA/VsS5sbDBpNI/AAAAAAAAsPA/j4IGd53zRlY/s1600/Royal-Enfield-1937-Sport-J-499cc.jpg

The Std and Deluxe varieties of most models appeared in the mid/late 1930s.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 09:17:18 PM by R »

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #138 on: March 21, 2021, 08:45:30 AM »
Interesting. I'm not sure if Enfield made the forks, but I suppose they had the capability. The Cycar from the early 1930s used a pressed-steel frame and fork, so if they made that they had some decent presses. Motorcycle-wise, they probably pressed Enfield brake drums and hub flanges?

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2021, 11:54:17 PM »
There may be no end to the number of Australian-assembled autocycles using the Villiers Junior de Luxe unit, c1940.

Here's the Barb entry, built by Finlay Bros in Melbourne. One of the lower-end models, with rigid fork and looking very bicycle-like. Finlay produced a huge number of Barb bicycles over the years.

Leon

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2021, 12:19:30 AM »
With a passing resemblance to a New Hudson, perchance ?

https://uploads.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/new_hudson/11128735.jpg

But then they all looked the same !

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #141 on: March 31, 2021, 01:22:05 AM »
Or a FB



With engine covers, we note.

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #142 on: March 31, 2021, 02:50:22 AM »
It certainly could have been bought in, but I'm going to pretend that Finlay Bros made it!! They knew a bit about making bicycles since James Finlay started building bicycles in 1869 - the year that 'The Barb' won the Sydney Cup for the second year in a row. Probably based on a Barb tradesman's bicycle. Finlay Bros had the agency for Villiers engines, so no problem sourcing the engines.

Leon


Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #143 on: March 31, 2021, 04:01:43 AM »
Surprise, surprise, that Francis Barnett does actually have “sprung” forks. There is a block of rubber at the bottom of the head stem which I assume gave some degree of  fork movement as you bounced through the bomb craters.
Those original blocks of rubber have long since gone to God. They have either collapsed or gone rock hard so few current riders have any idea of their effectiveness. I have no idea whether replacements are available and even if they were who would know if they properly reflect the original action.
Not that I have the remotest interest in finding out. Past expeditions on my mates New Hudson have completely cured me of any desire to own an autocycle.

On other matters I am still awaiting an answer on the Montgomery/ Utility question from the AOMC. They do warn it can take some time. Unfortunately Cardan has now added a further question  only the AOMC can answer. What do they have on the Barb?

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #144 on: March 31, 2021, 04:42:38 AM »
Unfortunately Cardan has now added a further question  only the AOMC can answer. What do they have on the Barb?

No! No! No! I have that massively-snowed-under feeling, so I'm happy to find out about the Utility question, but I can live with no knowledge at all of the Barb autocycle (other than that it existed).

This is mostly because motorcycles from Finlay/Barb have an interesting story that starts in the early days with BSA/Minervas, running through Barb-GEM motorcycles with the Danish GEM attachment driving the front wheel by friction, through regular machines with Fanfnir and Arno engines up to WW1, then... so the 1940 Barb autocycle is just an addendum.

The number of bikes registered, and the dates of registration are extremely useful to story telling. I've just been working through South Australian records and learning lots. Unfortunately the SA records are corrupted by a flaw that our British friends avoid: when you sold your bike and bought a new one, you could keep your old number. Two huge problems for historians: if the old bike was still alive when sold it could be reregistered, so you get very old bikes appearing with new rego numbers (say a 2 hp clip-on Minerva registered in 1921) AND the new machine never appears.

One of the problems I've been looking at is: When did Bill Smith stop calling his motorcycles Burg and start calling them Favourite? In January 1918 South Australia changed the names of about twenty "German-sounding" towns and locations, so Petersburg (after which the Burg was named) became Peterborough. But during 1918 and 1919 there were a number of Burgs registered, and NO Favourites. The first Favourite registered was in 1920. But Peterborough is a pretty isolated town. What if customers traded in their Burgs with Bill Smith for new Favourites, and kept their old numbers? The Burgs registered in 1918 and 1919 could be all second-hand, and counting Favourites registered, or ruling out 1918 or 1919 build Favourites could be dangerous.

Thanks goodness for the British "rego number for life" scheme. Until the numbers merchants, of course.

Leon

[Edit: I've just had a thought I should have had before. I wonder how new numbers were allocated in the SA system? Let's say Bill Smith in far-off Peterborough has a sparkling new Favourite on the floor of his showroom. A customer comes in on his old Burg and wants the new bike. If he keeps his old number, he can just swap the plates from the old Burg to the new Favourite, maybe fill in a form, and ride off into the sunset. What if he wants a new number? Write to Adelaide, wait for new number to be allocated and posted back to Peterborough? Perhaps there was a big incentive for country motorcyclists to keep their old numbers, particularly if buying from a country manufacturer/dealer?]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 05:34:23 AM by cardan »

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #145 on: March 31, 2021, 08:02:57 AM »
Ha! You are learning the practicalities of registering your motorcycle in country towns in the so called good old days. Easy peasy now with wham, bam thank you ma'am, computerisation and God Wot but a little bit of forethought needed back then.
The Victorian way was for each country police station to keep a bundle of numberplates on hand ready to issue. No writing to town required, no re-issue of previous numbers allowed. (Note for our UK readers. The authorities want you to display a numberplate? Certain size, certain colour and so forth? Then they better supply'em----and they did.)
In my own case I rode my unregistered ex WD M20 BSA down to the local cop shop, got it registered, a pair of numberplates was given me for later attachment (BK520, strange how you remember these things) and I then took my licence test on it. From unregistered, uninsured with unlicenced rider to all legal on the road in one stop at the local cop shop, no questions asked.

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #146 on: March 31, 2021, 12:04:08 PM »
No bundles of plates here in SA: I have lists of number/name/address from 1906-1914 and number/name/address/bike from 1915 to the late 1920s, and there are no geographical or dealership groupings, so it looks like each number came from a central source, one by one as requested.

The other problem I'm having is weird, one-off machines listed: whatever could a 1 1/2 h.p. Brennetts be in 1919? A new make of Australian-made motorcycle? Pity there is not local Brennetts Cycle Works or similar. Something made up? My favourite is a "Golikel", but who'd make up Brennetts? A typo? Plenty of possibilities if the name was Bennett rather than Brennetts. I can easily spend an hour or two searching old newspapers before deciding I have no idea!! (in the case of the 1 1/2 Brennetts, given the low power it could be a motor attachment or even a motor wheel, and Brennetts could be the make of the bicycle. But given the rego system, it could be a 1906 Brennetts. Aghh...)

Cheers

Leon
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 12:06:55 PM by cardan »

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #147 on: March 31, 2021, 01:39:01 PM »
I think we keep forgetting that like the whole automotive industry, no one knew the rego system would grow like crazy as more and more vehicles came on the road.
I think the admin system was often playing catch up as things just grew and grew hence the sometimes messy paperwork. And in the early days clerks were entering stuff they really didn’t know much about.
Certainly it was regularly revised and upgraded in trying to keep up but rarely ever got better than the bare minimum needed to operate.
Entertaining isn’t it.

Offline Rex

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #148 on: March 31, 2021, 04:04:37 PM »
More appropriately I'm sure those clerks, admin and letter stampers never thought anyone would be arguing 70+ years after their best efforts over whether it was a "4" or an "H" in the ledger or on the frame.

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #149 on: April 01, 2021, 12:49:27 AM »
You're so right Rex.
Anyway, Montgomery/Utiliity update. Had a preliminary phone call this morning with printed confirmation to come.
My 1939 Montgomery is just that and not a Utility. On top of that, there were NO 9D powered 125cc Utility. The 9D powered Montgomery wasn't sold as a Utility. There are none in the AOMC records. The smallest Utility recorded were powered by the 148cc Mk12C, engine prefix GY.
Montgomery did sell bikes powered by this engine in the early thirties but I have limited Montgomery information and don't know exactly what years these were. Nor do I yet know what years these particular Utility are. I only know they exist.
I was also interested to learn that AOMC have roughly some 300 Utility on record.  I don't know whether they were only sold out of their Melbourne shop and this is all of them or whether some were sent interstate for sale elsewhere. Perhaps Leon can tell us if Utility were sold in SA?
So, as usual, getting some answers invariably leads to more questions and we still don't have absolutely concrete information on the Montgomery/ Utility tie up. Known but not proven yer'Onor.
Hopefully though, I have opened the door a crack to the AOMC records.