Author Topic: Troubleshooting a JAP Special  (Read 24741 times)

Offline 33d6

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #90 on: May 09, 2024, 12:02:08 PM »
Knackered is knackered. No matter what little bodges you perform the need to replace the worn parts remains. It’s one thing to do a temporary repair to get home or until replacements are available but anything else just makes the bike a misery.
Do a proper job of it. New parts.

Offline Rex

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #91 on: May 09, 2024, 04:12:24 PM »
Way back when these were just old bikes and things were done to eke out a little more life from them, the fix of drilling along the spline/kick starter interface and fitting a bolt, screw, roll pin whatever often featured in the "ten bob tips" columns.
Don't know that I'd want to damage old parts in this way now though. :'(

Offline john.k

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2024, 05:01:21 AM »
Not strictly relevant ,but if you have a fine spine shaft and close down a matching spline with a clamped split ,the spline will eventually be sheared off as wear occurrs .............I used to see this quite often in a particular large truck steering ,where the sector shaft and drop arm were fine splined parallel,and eventually all the spline would disappear ...with noticable effects on the steering.

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2025, 12:09:39 PM »
Well - I finally got back into the forum after lots of trying. (Many thanks Admin!)


The JAPton is being stripped down because the magneto ran out of sparks, and the head decided to give up retaining compression.

Issues found so far :

Timing chain was a bit loose...


I wonder why....


Rocker arm end-float was somewhat wide....


They were both like that
This is roughly where it should be :


And the amount of movement has caused this damage to the oil galleries in the rocker box:



The engine sprocket was a git to get off.



The barrel skirt is damaged... but given the complete lack of damage to the piston/conrod, and the age/history of the barrel, we've concluded that this is old damage (I'm going to split the cases anyway).


Exhaust valve seat was knackered - you could see daylight through it!




errrrr.


Ah.


Well - that explains the highly unimpressive performance of the valve-lifter.



Cam follower probably needs replacing:


Next series of steps will be to continue the strip down so as to be able to check the main bearings (I'm not expecting issues, but I've been advised it's worth doing).  I'm not sure I'm brave enough to split the crank itself though.

Need to find an engineering workshop to weld some ally to that rocker box and tidy up the oil gallery so the exhaust rocker actually gets oil.

Then buy a few parts (hopefully), if not try to find them in auto-jumbles ( :o ), and reassemble.


Offline john.k

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2025, 11:45:21 PM »
Thats corrosion pitting..........I wouldnt worry about it .............I can say one thing for sure .....do not replace the rollers with ball bearings ...... disaster when the bearings break up and wreck the cams...........My motor has new rollers and cam ,as the 500 motors use the same parts as the rotary cultivator engines ,and I was lucky enough to find a stash of NOS engine parts

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #95 on: April 09, 2025, 01:45:27 PM »
Thats corrosion pitting..........I wouldnt worry about it .............I can say one thing for sure .....do not replace the rollers with ball bearings ...... disaster when the bearings break up and wreck the cams...........My motor has new rollers and cam ,as the 500 motors use the same parts as the rotary cultivator engines ,and I was lucky enough to find a stash of NOS engine parts

I was going to talk to Speedway Spares about the roller - they sell both the assembly, and the individual components, but I'm not sure how easy it is to disassemble, and reassemble the roller arm group.

Offline john.k

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2025, 05:30:42 AM »
The roller axles are rivetted in ,and probably a press fit as well ..........Ive never replaced one......but a while ago ,someone was selling off a well known stash of new Harley parts ,and the set of 4 tappet rollers from a shovel were around $10 ,so I got some ......the Harley ones have needle rollers   Ive got a V twin JAP  with really bad rollers ,probably 1/8" of losseness .......it was running like that ...but needs to be fixed.

Offline john.k

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2025, 08:09:55 AM »
One engine Ive worked on ,the roller tappets had only half an axle ,the other 1/2 of the space in the roller was taken up by a spring looked like a paperclip .....the lifter body had half a  hole broached into it,so there was no chance the axle could turn in the lifter ........very reliable system for an engine that would do a million miles.

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2025, 01:01:40 AM »
Hi RB
On some J.A.P ohv's the rockers are held in place by cast on "pip's" on the outer cover.  In your photos I can see the protrusions on the rockers that would sit against the cover pips.
It looks wrong when you take the cover off and the rockers can push /pull , but is fine when the outer cover is fitted

John

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2025, 04:29:28 PM »
Hi RB
On some J.A.P ohv's the rockers are held in place by cast on "pip's" on the outer cover.  In your photos I can see the protrusions on the rockers that would sit against the cover pips.
It looks wrong when you take the cover off and the rockers can push /pull , but is fine when the outer cover is fitted

John

Yeah - it'll be something to be checked thoroughly when I reassemble the box.  Which won't be happening until I get that damaged oil gallery fixed.

In the meantime: while I'm not rushing, I've not been idle either:

The following is a conglomeration of progress:

When you think you have a large spanner....


But you still end up needing something larger!


That nut came undone far more easily then I was expecting, but the threads cleaned up nicely. The exhaust is nicely patinated with spilt Castrol R, so I'm not going to polish it, just clean it up.

Next job is either to get the head off, or pull the engine out of the bike, just not sure which to do first.

pulled the head off :









This was most of the oil that had overflowed into the fins on the head.






These scores look nasty, but tbh, I think they're actually just superficial.


So i thought I'd pull the barrel as well.


Nice polished con rod there...


Nasty lump taken out of the barrel skirt though. :(
Funnily enough, I have the oddest feeling I've seen this before... Maybe in a photo or something. I need to see if there's any photos of this in the paperwork I have.




Next job is to fit a plug, or bolt into the head, then fill it with water to check the valve seals.

Oh, and see if that barrel is useable....


Oh yeah - I took a quick video of the movement on the big-end.

https://youtu.be/3hB3lH5znKU?feature=shared

Not the steadiest of shots I'll admit - but hopefully you can see the movement left to right of the conrod.

This seems a lot to me..... but is it a lot for a an engine designed in the 1930s?






Concerning this damage to the barrel skirt.....

I've chatted to one or two mates of my Dad today, and although no-one remembers anything about this.... we sort of agree that:

a) IF this damage had happened during the current "build" of the engine... then that damage would be apparent elsewhere: ie, the conrod would be dis-attached to the piston and in several pieces itself: it's not.  and;

b) Using this barrel would be exactly the sort of thing my Dad would do, if he considered that the piston is unlikely to be affected and the barrel wasn't going to start cracking up any further.

I've got a boroscope (ish) somewhere around, so I'll have a poke around in the cases, but I think that the barrel will be useable, and the damage was from a previous useage: ie some racer (possible a Formula 500 car) blew the engine, caused the damage, but then discarded the barrel to scrap/sale.  The damage is likely 50 years old.....


any road - next jobs are to continue stripping the engine, and figuring out how the hell to mount the timing disc onto the drive-side of the crankshaft so I can attempt to check the timing on the thing.  I also want to get the drive sprocket off - but can't figure out how to lock the crank in one position (tbh - I'm not even sure if the drive-sprocket nut is right- or left-hand threaded....)



I figured out how to get the nut off the engine sprocket...





The jaws on this clamp fitted into the sprocket carrier splines perfectly.


The nut came off with a LOT of torque required... because the $%^&&er was loc-tited.

Tidied up the edge on that barrel liner skirt. It's usable because the piston is on a short stroke length.



I also had a long call with a lovely old feller who is a bit of a guru with these engines, and he definitely have me some good advice and warned me about some things I wasn't aware of. 
It turns out the conrod in the engine is most likely an aluminium one, which is not as strong as the steel ones (obviously), and they haven't been made since the '70s, however, given that the engine is setup as a 400cc, running 9:1, on regular petrol, instead of 15:1 on meth... We reckon it should be okay for road use.

He also gave me some directions on the rocker box rebuild, and described how to do the valve timing using "split timing". Apparently he's never seen a JAP cam that was actually manufactured to the exact correct shape! :D


Oh yeah, and the valves need lapping...

https://youtu.be/qFme0sPGCp0?feature=shared

Especially the exhaust! :D



Stripped the valves out of the head tonight.







The inlet valve had a good seal. You can see the shiny ring around the head of the valve, that's indicative of a clean seal to the seat.
The odd broken/tired rings are the mica washer(s) that sit under the spring cup. I'm not sure about these. I don't know if this is multiple washers, or one washer that has delaminated. I know nothing about the material mica.



The exhaust needed a little... "persuasion" ... to separate the collets from the spring cap.



You can see that the exhaust seat isn't shiny like the inlet.



Lots of crud around the valve stem tube fitting on the exhaust side



Needs a clean



And, guess what.....

There's a video too! :D
https://youtu.be/h3auMMXjmrQ?feature=shared
(please pardon the language....)

Obviously I now have to decide if I need to get that inlet stem tube replaced, (They're pressed into the head, so I need to find someone to do it for me), or if I live with it. The exhaust side looks a lot newer than the inlet one.

I'm going to hold off on lapping the valves in until I make that decision.

Still pondering the best way to clean the burnt on carbon from the inside of the head and barrel (and piston), without damaging any of the surfaces.




Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2025, 04:31:02 PM »
... cont.


Got into the workshop this afternoon, and took the decision to just fuggin do it. 

Timing chain cam off easily enough, the two sprockets were well jammed on, but I eventually got them off with the bearing puller.

There's no keyway or anything on these, so the ignition timing needs to be done by "eye"...



The platform the mag sits in is pretty mullered....

Probably why it wasn't exactly firmly located.... :(

It was also only held on by 2 studs.

Here's the Mag drive shaft - note complete lack of keyways...

But nice modern seal.
The foam on the Mag is to stop oil flying about from the timing case, because the hole the mag shaft pushes through is about an inch square....

This frigging engine mount bolt was the main reason I was swearing all afternoon....

The nut on the end was tight as hell and so I couldn't pull the stud out of the plates on the other side.


When I was talking to the guru the other day: he mentioned the "bible" for JAP speedway engines is the "Greenwood" manual.
So - I popped a search into ebay, and one came up!  Score!  It turned up today, and as I was reading it (it's only about 8 pages), I was thinking.... this is all very familiar.....

Checked the books/manuals in the workshop and ....

ffs.
Dad had a photocopy of the damn thing.  :roll:

The interior of the timing chest:

Note shonky paper gasket and crap.
See if you can spot the wtf...


Inlet cam roller


Exhaust cam roller



WTAF?


No - I could NOT figure out what that was.... took me an hour.

This is the inside of the timing chest cover - with the exhaust valve lifter gubbins:






This is the cam-shaft in place in the timing chest cover


Close up of the cams:





I was looking at the valve-lifter assembly above, and comparing it the position of the valves... and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how on earth it was meant to do anything.  The lifter assembly is the same "thickness" as the cam-shaft gear, and the exhaust roller is tucked away behind that gear when the chest is assembled ... so ... what did it "act" on??


I eventually worked it out when I got to pulling out the rollers :



That little stub of metal "was" a pin that had been driven through the exhaust roller arm, and which would then stick past the cam-shaft-gear and the valve lifter could act on that pin to lift the exhaust valve.  But: the pin has obviously snapped at some point in the past: no wonder the valve lifter was utterly useless!! :D :D
TBH I'm probably going to just strip the lifter mechanism out completely, rather than try to get a new pin driven into the roller.  It's only 9:1....

Inlet, and exhaust rollers:


However... I think a new inlet roller may be in order, not sure, but I think they come as a pre-assembled part. :





EVENTUALLY.. after quite a bit of twisting, looking, perusing, swearing and general $%^&&ery....


IT'S OUT!


And that was about all I really had time for.  Next jobs are to continue stripping down the cases to check the crank bearings are still in good shape.  Ideally I'd split the crank.... but I'm REALLY sure not sure I'm brave enough for that....


This frame really has been bodged about.



This is the hole we were talking about... all the way back on page 1...



Hadn't noticed this nick on the conrod before.


I'm thinking this conrod is likely to be second hand, so the nick is likely old too. I hope...


Some carbon on the piston.








From the pile of tools I brought back from Dad's workshop I eventually unearthed this, among the 5 or 6 other "pullers". Put a new bolt in it, for some totally unknown reason he had a carriage bolt in it.. :wtf:.



I had to file it down a touch, but it worked perfectly.




One of the other pullers to remove the crank sprocket from the timing side.


This plate needs to come off, but I've no idea what it's been such on with, or what's behind it that I don't want to damage while removing the plate.


Timing side of the crankshaft


Piston is cleaning up nicely, but I'll keep at it.








Bit more progress on the JAPton strip down yesterday:

Stripped off the oil seal plate on the crank output shaft :




I wonder if that's a modern update.  I don't remember seeing anything about it on any of the diagrams or books, and the thing is held on with metric cap-screws... (well, I didn't check the threads, but they take a 3mm metric Allen key, and none of my Imperial Allen keys would fit....)


While I was fiddling with the output side.... I heard a "clonk" from the other side of the cases....



The oil drain box cover fell off. :D :D :D :D

I'd already removed the screws last time, but it had appeared to have been solidly glued down with silicon sealant...  Apparently not so solidly! :D





Kellogg's still make the best gasket paper. ;)


The gunk inside the oil drain chest.





This is the underside of the oil drain chest - it's a one-way valve of some sort - I'm going to clean up the mating edges for the outer covers, but otherwise leave this alone.




Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2025, 04:32:46 PM »
... cont.



The scary part!!




Plonk!  (tinkle tinkle tinkle..... feck where did the pins go!)


There's 10 of the little buggers each side.


Output shaft:



Magnet to pull the pins out when they refuse to fall out by themselves.



Simple engines are great.



Timing side: ALL the pins fell straight out!


Timing side bearing liner is ok.



Output side not so much....

That patch feels rough as hell. New liner time.


I'm currently mentally debating the wisdom of breaking the crank down... looks simple enough... it's the reassembly that scares me!





Insides of the cases are epoxied to buggery.  I don't know if this is my Dad's doing... but it's likely.









Another view of that liner.



These "thimbles" screw into the cases and provide the base for the screw-down head rods


They're a git to get loose...


Paper gaskets infused with oil take heat well....


I'm reliably informed that the thimbles come out a lot easier if they're assembled with coppa-slip.  Luckily, I've got plenty! :D

The thimbles have these little pucks underneath to stop any galvanic reactions with the cases (or that's what I've been told - it could be just to provide a flat step for the thimble to wedge down onto).



Epoxy:


I'm glad to see that the drain plug hasn't been epoxied over....


Blue hylomar... my old friend!

You can sort of see the "lip" that JAP used to create a labyrinth seal on the cases here.

As said - I'm just pondering the wisdom of splitting the crank up to check the big-end bearings - they "feel" ok - but while I'm here it might be worth doing.  I'm just being cautious about that because bolting it back up "straight" is going to be paramount.

All that only took me about 90 minutes, and I managed to finally get down to the local "Classic vehicles" club night and join the club - they do a monthly meet only about 3 miles from me so it's dumb really that I've not joined before now.  Already hopefully got leads on a couple of hopefully useful contacts.


Just in case anyone is wondering: I'm using this thread mostly for myself to provide my thoughts and notes as I go, for reference to when I put it back together, or do it again!  Pretty sure there's no-one else on the forum with a JAP speedway engine to dismantle.. :D  (happy to be proven wrong though! :D )


Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2025, 04:35:01 PM »
Ooops - looks like I've repeated some details there - sorry about that. :D

Offline cardan

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2025, 02:59:45 PM »
"I'm just pondering the wisdom of splitting the crank up to check the big-end bearings..."

Yes it's a tricky one, perhaps depending on what you want to do with the bike. If you do pull it apart keep in mind that it is tricky to get it back together and running dead true. If you've not done it before best left to an expert? I've done it lots of times, and most often it's gone ok. Only once did it defeat me entirely (i.e. no better than a couple of thou run-out on the shafts after trying everything I know) and I had to pass it on to the expert who used appropriate (unknown to me) magic to get it running just so.

The epoxy is interesting. Often cases an an engine can be quite porous to oil and painting the inside with something (glyptal, expoxy of some kind) can keep the outside clean. Hopefully there's no major corrosion being covered up.

Leon

Offline Rockburner

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Re: Troubleshooting a JAP Special
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2025, 01:12:16 PM »
"I'm just pondering the wisdom of splitting the crank up to check the big-end bearings..."

Yes it's a tricky one, perhaps depending on what you want to do with the bike. If you do pull it apart keep in mind that it is tricky to get it back together and running dead true. If you've not done it before best left to an expert? I've done it lots of times, and most often it's gone ok. Only once did it defeat me entirely (i.e. no better than a couple of thou run-out on the shafts after trying everything I know) and I had to pass it on to the expert who used appropriate (unknown to me) magic to get it running just so.

The epoxy is interesting. Often cases an an engine can be quite porous to oil and painting the inside with something (glyptal, expoxy of some kind) can keep the outside clean. Hopefully there's no major corrosion being covered up.

Leon

Yeah - I think I may have a contact with someone locally who runs a Cooper 500 car, so hopefully will have experience (or knows someone else) in doing that job.    Even though the bike is only a road-bike, and is running low compression (9:1 and petrol as opposed to 15:1 on dope), I'd like it to be "as good as I can get it".  Ideally I want to get into the cycle of "ride in summer / maintain in winter", however the learning experience of my first full strip down is taking longer than I had expected, mainly due to the unexpectedly poor condition of some components, and the lack of time I'm getting in the workshop. :D