Author Topic: Villiers battery charging system ?  (Read 850 times)

Offline R

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Villiers battery charging system ?
« on: November 19, 2025, 09:46:07 PM »
In the late 40s early 1950s, you could buy a basic little Villiers powered bike with direct AC lighting only.
Or, the upmarket version with 6v battery and charging system.
And the direct AC lighting was still available, selectable on the (special) Miller 4 pole headlamp switch.

I was somewhat bemused to see the battery charging system seemingly has no voltage control (?)
Or have I missed something ?   How did they get away with this ?
Does the half-wave rectified 6v output only constitute a trickle charge to the battery maybe  ?

Does the base model Villiers have the same number of lighting coils for the flywheel as the battery model ?

Jist curious, at this stage ...


Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2025, 02:21:33 PM »
Reading about, it seems that Villiers engines came with 2, 4 or 6 lighting coils.
Mine has 2,  being early postwar.

And the correct bulbs are listed as 1 amp and .75 amp
So the total max lighting output AC  is ~10 w  ?
And a half wave rectifier acting on that would be 5 watts DC for the battery. ?
So literally just a trickle charge.

The plan to just use a 6v battery and charge it occasionally at home seems solid,
its unlikely to get much (ever ?) nighttime use ...

Offline Rex

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2025, 05:26:18 PM »
These bikes were sold as cheapest-of-the-cheap commuter bikes, and if the battery went flat occasionally then just charge it up.
No-one expected anything else before the Honda C50 came along.

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2025, 05:03:41 AM »
Indeed.
The local advertising for these was something like "a penny a mile"
so you couldn't get more economy oriented than that.

That said, you'd hope the engineering was at least in the ballpark,
And spares and a handbook gave you a chance of keeping it running ...

Now, to find a suitable Miller headlamp switch, for the best ! of all worlds
4 position, Direct as the 4th position.

Offline Vreagh

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2025, 12:12:12 PM »
The rectifier would be of the selenium type which would have a fair bit of internal resistance also lowering the DC output. Maybe Villiers accidentally invented the first regulator/rectifier. 🤔😁

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2025, 09:33:38 PM »
Interesting point.
This looking like less of a trickle charge, and more of a dribble charge ...

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2025, 02:06:27 AM »
Hmmm, the Owners Manual for a later model refers to a 30w generator.
Must be with more lighting coils than this has ...

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2025, 02:11:32 AM »
Hmmm, the Owners Manual for a later model refers to a 30w generator.

A wiring diagram for such a FB shows still no voltage  control.
But a large resistance wire - centre to the top - connected to the light switch.
To soak up unneeded power ?
When the lights are not in use ??

https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/francis-barnett-falcon-87/images/Francis-Barnett-1965c-Falcon-87-Wiring-Diagram.jpg

Be more sensible (these days) to have a lamp there as a running light. ?
Curious and curiouser ...


Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2025, 03:36:40 AM »
Miller dip switches - as a genuine copy - are fiercely expensive.
So I improvised - a coat of black (left) on a knockoff pattern.
And it has a horn press.

https://i.postimg.cc/QMQZcQxx/Miller-copy.jpg


Might work on the lighthouse 3-d molding for the top....

If only they made the supplied wires a shade longer.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2025, 03:46:56 AM by R »

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2025, 09:10:15 AM »
So where does this wee beastie get all the juice to power that big headlamp.
Not knowing lil RE's in the slightest ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/146989249719

Edit. Specs say it has Villiers direct (AC) lighting
And were new for 1933 ?



Offline Vreagh

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2025, 10:53:32 AM »
He may of fitted a cheap chinese reg/rectifier, and that headlight looks like an indian Lucas with a LED bulb to be that bright. I've done similar with my 1929 FB with no lighting coils. I fitted a 45 watt dynamo and made a 12v regulator for it, coupled with 12v bulbs all round, even a brake light. Not concours or to spec but very rideable.

Offline R

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2025, 10:00:40 PM »
Yes, I would regard a working (and visible) brake light in particular as essential in modern traffic.

Funny you should mention replica lamps. I've just taken delivery of several, and apart from no Lucas logos
or numbering they seem almost indistinguishable from the real thing. Sure beats an empty space, at least ...
Even the paintwork has improved lately ? 
We will see if they still work in 70+ years ?!

Offline 33d6

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2025, 11:01:06 AM »
For various reasons I haven't been looking here much lately so have come in at the end of the above chatter. I gather from what has been said on previous occasions that you are writing about your 9D powered Waratah/Excelsior R. If so you don't seem to have a relevant Villiers manual which does make it a little tricky. I'll start with the first question and try to work through them all.
Of course there's no voltage control. Can you think of any British bike of the time that DID have voltage control on an AC system? I think Triumph were more or less the first major factory to fit alternators. They had the same lack of voltage control and those following weren't much better. I remember much unhappiness about batteries boiling dry and other woes in the early years of it all and a distinct lack of enthusiasm about the infamous multi-terminal Lucas combined ignition and lighting switch. What was it? the PS or PSR8? It's no consolation but Villiers were no more and no less ghastly than much more expensive machinery. Let's face it post-war British motorcycle electrics were never world leaders.
Essentially the factories fitted only the one size 6Volt battery, I don't think they had much option. I think it was the only one available and it seems as it acted as some sort of electrical buffer in these systems. They all seemed to revert to the old three brush dynamo idea of a daylight charging rate and a night time head lights on charging rate which never worked particularly well. I'm no electrician, maybe there was some sort of secret to it.
Next, there were two lighting systems used on the 9D. From memory, 18 watt or 24 watt systems. The lower wattage having both fewer coils and smaller magnets. You appear to have the lower wattage cheaper system fitted. Perhaps this was one of the ways the factory differentiated between an Excelsior or a Waratah. I don't know. Whatever, they are both standard Villiers systems of their day but you have to work to the limitations of each.
As for light switches Villiers supplied a relevant light switch for whatever lighting system you used, rectified lighting with a battery or directly off the lighting coils. The four position switch was late on the scene, well after your wee bike. Before Villiers provided this switch to change between steady battery lighting for town use and 'direct' lighting for country running the knowing rider wired in an extra dip switch and used that to flick between the two systems. Eventually it dawned on Villiers that they could add the dip- switch trick to their standard switch and sell it as a standard function but as your bike predates this you could use the extra dip switch concept as being absolutely correct for the time. Just remember that LED's probably wouldn't like the change to direct lighting too much. They're rather keen on a steady current without erratic swings. It's an arrangement for old fashioned bulbs only.
Finally I'm in complete agreement with the idea of a brake/stop light on any bike. I have absolutely no faith in any following traffic.
Anything else I need to cover?   

Offline Rex

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2025, 10:34:20 PM »
Let's face it post-war British motorcycle electrics were never world leaders.

They were "of their time" but don't go telling my old girls that they weren't world leaders, as they all work fine even though they range from 90-70 years old.
Then again, they've shared shed space with Spanish, French, Italian and US bikes of a similar age, and their electrics were pretty much identical in operation and reliability.
There was a German TWN for a while, and that had more up-market electrics but cost a more up-market price when new.
They didn't last long..

Offline 33d6

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Re: Villiers battery charging system ?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2025, 01:37:07 AM »
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Rex. Sadly I think the British motorcycle industry dropped the ball badly with their lightweights in the 50s & 60's. I own nothing but British but only of the late 20's with some 30's stuff and when I compare them to models made by the same factories 20 -30 years later I find they're just making an updated version of the same thing with little improvement in economy, performance or braking. Definitely better in suspension related areas but not much else. The expression polishing a t**d comes to mind. Fresh ideas and a fresh approach were needed and it didn't happen.
Although I'm no fan of their odd combined kickstart/gear lever setup I have to admit the Jawa/CZ's of the same period are markedly better and and German two-strokes of the period were magnificent. It's just a pity that their motorcycle industry collapsed when the German economy reached take off point and the average citizen could afford a car leaving two-wheelers behind. As for TWN, a friend had a TWN Contessa scooter and it had no problem maintaining station with the 350 Ariel I was riding at the time. And it had electric start when such a thing was quite exotic.
I enjoy playing with my Villiers stuff but I have no illusions that it could've been better.