NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF ETHANOL

[bikerbob]

Hi there
Have been doing some research on this topic and I am now quite worried to the extent that I went to see my local MP about it who was very sympathetic and promised to write to the Minister  of Transport about it.
So what am I worried about, well I have 2 bikes both with petsealed tanks which as you may already know will be dissolved by Ethanol it also dissolves some fibreglass tanks. I have found that some people have already had disastrous problems such as carb throttle valve seizing  inlet valves seizing to the extent that the push rods bent needing a complete strip down of the cylinder head and a lot of work to rectify. Now you might think that okay I don't have a sealed tank or a fibre glass tank so I will be okay. Wrong there is alist materials that are not recommened for use with EthanolI will give you some. Zinc, Brass, Copper, Aluminium, Lead/Tin Viton, Neoprene, Nylon 66, Cork. Now while the effects on some tank sealants and some fibreglass tanks is immediate the possible longer term effects on these other materials I cannot find an answer to.  Bear in mind that our carbs have Zinc bodies brass jets copper floats that are soldered and cork seals in the petrol taps. I have asked my MP to try to get it made compulsory for all fuel stations label all pumps with the level of Ethanol, to delay any further implementation of Ethanol until more research is done into the negative effects and a major publicity campaign to make the public aware of the dangers to some vehicles. It does not bear thinking about if you are riding your bike and your carb throttle valve sticks because of Ethanol dissolving the sealant in your tank. GO to www.fbhvc.co.uk and in the information panel click on Bio-fuels and read the article.

[R]

The odd thing is that ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is one of the most inactive substances known to man.
( unless you drink it to excess !!, because it is the active ingedient in beer wine spirits etc ).

So why is it so different when its bio-ethanol  ??

P.S. The last time my throttle stuck open, just pulled in the clutch.
While not all riders may be this alert, this is always a cure for this malady.
May not be kind to your engine though....

[bikerbob]

Hi there
Take your point about pulling in the clutch it would free up the engine and depending  what speed you were  doing prior to the throttle valve sticking there is a good chance that the engine would simply blow or seize. Also in such an emergency would you have time bearing in mind,  once again depending on speed, by the time you check that the throttle has stuck and  the brain has time to react to that fact, it could be too late you may already be DEAD. I have only ever once had a stuck throttle and that was when starting up and I can asure you that by the time you frantically try to close it and then realise it is stuck and then hit the kill switch  a couple seconds has passed  now how far would I have travelled at say a moderate  50MPH definately far enough to hit something stationary in front of me. I would like to think that I would be alert enough to pull in the clutch but I certainly do not want to be in a position to find out.

[R]

When my throttle cable unravelled inside, and the car in front was looming fast, I can assure you that pulling in the clutch was an instant reaction. As was applying BRAKES !!!

Sorting out the engine was a distant last priority. But unless you were riding beserko, full throttle is unlikely to be in the equation ?. Although not something that I'd wish to test, I would agree.

It still doesn't explain why bio ethanol is getting all this bad press, when ethanol is so stable a product  What does the bio do to it .... ?

[bikerbob]

Hi there
Ethanol is I believe pure alcohol  and as such it has a detrimental effect on some materials it acts as a solvent on some and has a corrosive effect on others. It is also hygroscopic that means it absorbs moisture now everyone knows petrol and water do not mix granted if you use your vehicle on a regular basis this will not be a problem, but you are advised not to store petrol with Ethanol in for any length of time how long I cannot find out. If Ethanol is as stable as you think then why is it banned  in aviation fuel for light aircraft on safety grounds. I would like more research to be done both into it,s negative effects and it,s supposed green credentials given if it is true what I have found out on the web. Brazil is the worlds biggest producer of Ethanol they extract it from sweet corn and sugar cane they have huge areas of land devoted to growing these crops we are having enough problems feeding the growing world population as it is do we really want devote an ever increasing amount of land to Bio- Fuel production, where is this land going to come from. I read one article that said outside of SAO PAULO in Brazil  there are oceans of land devoted to growing sugar cane, now before you harvest sugar cane you have to set fire to it first the resultant smoke is now causing pollution problems for that city. Another article said that to produce one gallon of Ethanol you would need three gallons of water. I have no way of knowing if these  articles are true nor do I know if they not as I just found them by typing into google negative effects of Ethanol. Finally I do not want to appear to be alarmist but seized throttle valves at least one damaged motorcycle engine and leaking fuel tanks have already happened all proved to be Ethanol related, I do not want to see on the television or read in the papers about some person who has been seriously injured or worse because  of them not knowing about the damaging effects of the addition of Ethanol in fuel.
 

[R]

This is where the story gets a bit murky - petrol is allowed, by law, to be up to 5% water. (is it ??)   This is before ethanol appeared on the scene.

This fact emerged when some petrol stations started pumping neat water into folks fuel tanks - with predictable results.

It seems the underground tanks contain some water, which is hard to exclude, and the petrol simply floats on top, and is pumped off the top and sold to customers. As long as the underground tanks don't fill with water, all is well....

Petrols used to contain something that grabbed any stray water in your fuel tank, and bound it up chemically within the fuel - hence the 5% bit.

So does ethanol not blend with petrol, or separate out in some fashion that is the problem ? 

[bikerbob]

HI there
It is not the water content that is causing the problems with Ethanol initially that maybe a side issue to do with storage I have found out that you cannot add Ethanol at the refining  stage and then pump it through piplines it has to be added just before delivery to filling stations as i say this information I got from the web so I really cannot say if it is true. But what is true is the damaging effects of Ethanol when it dissolves some tank sealants and causes the resultant goo to be drawn into the carb and also fibreglass resins.

[speedo]

Hi Biker Bob ,interesting subject . I cant realy comment as regards M/C's as my 27 Raleigh does not get that much road use . However I use Bio Diesel in my BT 50 Mazda . I have used it eversince new and have had no problems at all even though Mazda say that any warrenty claims will not be met if this fuel is used .
I had a Nissan diesel some years back initialy I used standard diesel then changed to Bio . That change cleaned all the gunk from the fuel lines ,filled the fuel filter witha queer jelly like gunk . THis happenend only the once from then on the fuel filter was clean.

[Stevejs]

If you have a Petsealed petrol-tank all you have to do is remove the coating and replace it with an ethanol-compatible product. The stuff you need to remove Petseal is methyl chloride based, like Nitromors paint-stripper. You'd better get it quick, though: our beloved masters in Brussels are expected to ban methyl chloride products soon - evidently too dangerous for us oiks to mess with.

The joke is that biofuels, when the impact of their production is taken into account, are reckoned to cause more emissions than the fossil-fuels they are supposed to replace. The source? Friends of the Earth, not normally an organisation we find on our side of an argument!

[bikerbob]

Hi there
Just an update I have today recieved a letter from my MP in which he says he has forwarded my letter of concern to the minister the Rt.Hon Philip Hammond MP and will contact me again when he recieves a reply. So hopefully something will get done. I did visit my MP and gave him my letter, he was very sympathetic having in his youth owned 2 BSA,s aC11g and a C15 and having an engineering background he understood the carb and engine problems.

[wetdog]

bikerbob.... good luck with your MP , has he mentioned any costs inccured yet ? as in my limited exp they are a bunch of rip off ************ only out for self enrichment

[Rex]

Indeed. Bikerbob, don't hold your breath waiting for a reply. Being cynical, I expect your letter went no further than the MP's circular under-desk filing cabinet......

[bikerbob]

I don,t blame anyone for being cynical when dealing with politicians my MP has sent me a copy of the letter that he has sent to the minister so we will wait and see I have done this before although not on a bike related issue and I did get a reply.

[wetdog]

they are duty bound to reply

[bikerbob]

Hi there just an update. I
I have recieved a reply form my MP he has forwarded my letter to the transport minister and will be in touch when he gets a reply.
 Also in the March copy of the BSA magazine there is an update which does not make good reading. A report commissioned from QinetiQ ( a provider of technical advice to customers such as Government orginisations) by the Ministry of Transport was published in January. Briefly it found that the majority of vehicles 10years or older will not be compatible with E10 due to fuel system material incompatibilty issues. ( fuel containing 10% ethanol).
 Carburettor vehicles and powered two wheelers will suffer problems due to material incompatibilty,corrosion and drivability issues also it goes on to say that fibre glass tanks may suffer failure due to incompatibility of the glass fibre resin with Ethanol petrol blends.
 It recommends that vehicles 10 years or older, carburettored  vehicles and first generation direct spark ignition vehicles  should not be fuelled on E10 (10% ethanol) unless manufactures state otherwise. The present 5% ethanol content should not phased out in 2013 it's widespread availibility should continue for the foreseeable future and consideration should be given E0 (no ethanol) fuel for historic and vintage vehicles.
Partly as a result of this report, the FBHVC have concluded from a lengthy legislation document, that fuel with 5% ethanol will be around until 2015, with the suggestion of low ethanol fuel for historic vehicles. Before the report was published the Department of Transport 's position was that the phasing out of E5% fuel after 2013 to be replaced by E10% was a firm one.
 So it does not look very good for the future already there are problems with the 5% never mind increasing it to 10%.