Author Topic: 1962 Model 88; previously 1957 basket case value?  (Read 159826 times)

Offline john.k

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2013, 10:37:29 AM »
The twin forum at the NOC website is a scene of massive discussion and argument,some heated,about Dominators,650SS,Manxmen,etc.There is a multitude of changes,variations,etc. that affects these bikes of around that era.Even partslists cannot be relied on.IMHO,the SS refers to as well as whats been mentioned,an increase in crank journal size,which was applied to the 650s at the same time.I suggest you check out this forum.The machinist you refer to ,I think is a person I have known for 40 years,and would be close to Australias best British (and Jap) bike machinist.Unfortunately,he has been forced to stop rather suddenly,and I wont say more than that.Regards John.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2013, 10:48:56 PM »
Hi John.K

Thanks for your reply, I have found researching this bike fairly confusing for the reasons you point out, I am about to make up an order to Norvil who said they will help out where I have the part numbers confused, but it does seem a messy job working out parts for these bikes in this way.

It is knowing what to look out for, I need to better establish what exactly I have and I think I have been too quick to accept a couple of indications like frame numbers and engine numbers that would normally Identify a model in other bikes readily.

You are correct in your assumptions about the machinist, I have only heard great things about his ability and knowledge, I was lucky enough to speak to him briefly and he helped me avert a disaster in that one call.

I have been put on to a chap in Loganholme near my work so I hope to meet him soon to see if he can help me out.

Thank you for your feed back.

Regards

Eryn

Offline john.k

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2013, 11:14:56 AM »
As the bike has been together and running,you don't need to worry about things like the incompatability between featherbed and single downtube bits ,which often totally stuffs up basketcase restorers.I seem to remember,that different capacity parts fit the crankcase,so you should establish stroke and bore,and not rely on case numbers as gospel.Obviously, your best bet is to try and find someone local that has restored one,and talk to them.There are  little tricky things like some pushrods being too "fat" to fit the holes in the cylinder without fauling,and putting the flywheel the right way round,as well as many others.Expensive mistakes are best avoided..Regards John.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2013, 05:16:11 AM »
Does anyone have an idea on price difference between points electrics, rebuilt, or purchased new and an electronic system conversion?

My Dizzy base plate and counter weights look ok.....but I need new everything else coil, points, rotor,alternator/generator,resistor,cap,leads etc etc.

I can imagine some problems with the old points system, but how bad are they? Verses electronic conversion cost and effort to install?

I get that the electronics once installed should be brilliant, but would you do it?

Cheers

Kiwi

Offline john.k

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #124 on: August 28, 2013, 12:10:03 PM »
The Lucas horizontal dizzy was subject to wear in the auto advance components,which makes for variable point gap,and timing.The shaft bearing in the body is easily repaired,but the auto advance not so easy.The usual solution is and allways was to fit a K2F magneto with manual advance.To fit an alternator,you will need the adaptor and mounting parts in the primary case.If your motor takes a generator,and you don't have one,then consider a modern replacement,as Lucas gennys are going for the same kind of money.Incidentally,a 57 would have had the 6v system which allways boiled the battery over the chrome primary case,with resultant acid damage.Regards John.

wetdog

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #125 on: August 28, 2013, 01:10:46 PM »
"would have had the 6v system which allways boiled the battery " ............... did this only happen on nortons ?

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 (now 61) model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2013, 11:45:33 PM »
Thanks for your replies, but my subject line is now misleading because some time ago forum members helped me determine the bike is actually a late 1961 model.

Sorry for the confusion I should have changed the subject as the pages rolled on!

Perhaps the advice hasn't change?

Cheers

Kiwi

Offline john.k

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2013, 10:54:07 AM »
Actually,58 was the first year of the alternator on twins,and the 6v system had no current regulation,save the battery.It was allways very noticeable,with chrome stripped and rust stains.The 6v alternators wer nt encapsulated and wires often broke.The 12 v system had many improvements.Considering the first Lucas bike alternators came out in 1943,they took a long time to get them right.Regards John.

Offline Rex

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2013, 12:51:35 PM »
Didn't the 6V system have alternator coils switched in or out by the light switch? It may be crude, but it's still regulation.  Agreed, the battery acts as a reliable voltage regulator if the system is well designed and load matches demand. That nice Mr Honda has been doing it for years on the cheap end of the ranges.

Offline beng

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2013, 04:37:46 AM »
Kiwi,

          Your model 88 is definitely a 1962. I have four 1962 Dominators, three 500cc and one 650cc, and have picked up a few bits of information on them. If your bike is an 88ss the engine crankcases will be clearly stamped 88SS on the left case above the crankcase breather. A standard 88 will be stamped "88" or "88C" most likely. Your engine number 101010 should also be stamped into the right swingarm gusset vertically below a horizontal "122" stamping.
 
           A lot of the parts on your bike make it look like it was a standard Dominator. A 1962 88ss would have a manual-advance K2FC Lucas magneto, a oil tank with a froth tower and a timing cover with machining to accept an optional tachometer drive.  A standard 88 would have the distributor like your bike has, the oil tank sans froth tower with the center panel welded to it and a plain non-tach drive timing cover. Also your head looks like the standard Dominator head, not the downdraught SS head. The standard head had manifold studs that were above and below the ports, the SS head had the studs all in a horizontal line surrounding downdraught ports. The SS cam will be stamped "X1" and the standard cam will be stamped "QR".
 
           Chrome fenders were an option this year, as were a folding kickstarter, a chrome primary, the tachometer among other goodies all listed in the parts book and owners' manual for this bike.
 
            After 5 decades it is anyone's guess what has been done to the bike, if it was bored over then the engine was apart. Two of my 62' 88s are SS models and the third is a works road racer.
 
             Starting in 1960 the crankshaft in the 88 and 99 was strengthened by decreasing the size of the sludge trap inside the rod journals from 1" to 5/8". The crank journals O.D. remained the same 1.5". No Model 88 or 99 Nortons ever had rod journals larger than 1.5" except for about a dozen works road race bikes that the factory entered or supported during 1961 and 1962.
 
              Besides the three 1962 model 88s and the same year 650ss, I have Norton 650cc Manxman serial #3, a 59' Manx, the 20th 99ss, the second 750cc Atlas engine, and a later 650ss that I can refer to for needed information. I have an internet page just for information on bikes like yours here:
 
              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Norton-Manxman-SportSpecial-and-racing-motorcycles/187441501303123
 
            Good luck, and that is a very nice old Dominator you have there....
 
         
 
         
 

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #130 on: October 14, 2013, 12:12:02 AM »
Hi beng

Thanks for your information, you are right on the money by the looks of it, The engine case has 88C stamped on it and the frame numbers are as you say, a horizontal 122 with the 101010 vertical underneath. The crank has 88/SS on it and I will measure the journals tonight.  I am grateful for your information on the optional chrome guards etc too as I have gone for a standard look with the black frame and split black and off-white tank. I have blasted and repainted all the frame components but kept the enamel look, but I used PU paint. the bike should look original as from the factory as near as I can get it and not over refurbished.

Can I ask where you are getting new engine components? I need pistons, pins, rings, big end shells, valves, springs, retainers, gasket sets etc,etc. among other stuff.

I am going to get a quote from Norvil, they seem to have a good reputation.

My barrel seems in ok condition but it either needs to go out to .60 over size or be sleeved back to standard, have you had to do either? I am not really wanting to bore to .60 over as I will have put a lot of effort into this bike and it seems wrong to me to have the engine out so far. Is one of these barrels up to being sleeved reliably? I have read that the barrels can be a little weak?

Does a sleeved barrel present any other problems that you might know about? (over heating)?

I have some extra parts with this bike too that may be of use to someone.

Thanks for the Facebook link and really good information!

Kind Regards

Kiwi




Offline beng

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #131 on: October 14, 2013, 04:12:43 AM »
   Kiwi,
 
            It is never a bad idea to slow down when you are working on a bike like this, especially if it is one you don't have a lot of prior experience with.
 
    Any 1962 Model 88 is a very rare machine, especially one that is as complete as yours is. The parts specific to your engine, the cylinder and crankshaft especially are extremely rare, if you are lucky you will see one of each come up for sale on the world market in useable condition each year, really.
 
            The rest of the engine parts are easier as they are the same as either the Model 99 or 650. In fact your crankcases are what some people call "humpback" Dominator cases, which they just started using on the 1961 bikes, it has more clearance in it so that it can take the big 650cc crank and connecting rods. In fact all you have to do to convert your engine to 650cc is to put a 650cc crank, rods, pistons and cylinder on it. Your cylinder head is not the style the 650 was sold with but it will bolt onto a 650 and run fine.
 
             If you can get a first-rate machinist with experience sleeving bores on classic bikes and a list of satisfied customers then it would not be a bad way to go. I am running a 650ss right now that has a sleeved cylinder and it seems to have no problems.  A good machinist with experience would be able to look at your cylinders and tell you how much material has to be left in them before they can no longer be sleeved. The 88 cylinders do have thicker castings than the 99 and 650 cylinder though, and if you run a good air cleaner the cylinder can last a very long time. I know someone who has an original paint 1961 Norton 650 that has tens of thousands of miles on it and still runs well with it's original bore and rings because since it turned past 5000 miles it has had foam sock filters on it's carbs.
 
            The current Hepolite company is supposed to be selling all sizes of Dominator pistons, and a very good Norton engine builder here says that he has had no problem with the quality of current Hepolite products. The Norton 88 has small light pistons compared to the 750-850 Nortons and it has a very short stroke, the pistons are not stressed highly, so any cast pistons you can find will do a good job, leave the forged pistons to the racers.
 
           My first choice for Norton engine parts is to be patient and wait for old 60s stock to come up for sale at flea markets, old dealers or one of the Ebay online auctions.
           Norvil has a large selection of parts, but a lot of his parts are sourced from third-world suppliers or are not manufactured to original specification. That is okay for a seat or something less critical, but not for engine parts. Most of Norvil's positive reviews they generate themselves. Gaskets are not really critical parts so I might trust them to supply those.

          Andover Norton mostly sells Commando parts, but their parts are all made to high standards and must be to original quality spec or they will not sell them. They have a few parts for Dominators. The 750 Commando guides are the same as Dominator. Commando valves will fit but are a bit taller so they either have to be ground shorter and re-hardened or your pushrods need to be shortened to work with them. Norton made the longer valves an across the board change to all their Dominators starting in 1968.
          Standard Commando valve springs are the same as SS Dominator springs and will work in your engine just fine. They are a different free length, but that is no concern as long as they fit your retainers and cups etc..
 

           If your bike is something  you are planning on keeping for life, then take your time and make sure you do a good job on the engine and gearbox at least. I am not a fan of bead blasting the alloy parts of vintage engines, it ruins the original as-cast finish, but one place bead blasting is very helpful is in removing the hard carbon deposits from around the valve guides in the head ports. After this carbon is blasted off, then heat the head up to 150c-200c and with a nice fitting drift knock the old guides out and if they are handy the new ones into place. If the old hard carbon is not gone and/or the head is not heated up when this is done then you will score the guide bores and ruin their ability to seal against the new valve guides.
 
           The less you do to these old engines the better. When I looked close at my 62' Domi engine I saw that the cylnder had been sleeved to standard at sometime in the past, it was used though. I measured the bore and found it was worn .0035 over standard with no noticeable taper, the factory said that up to .006 wear with no taper was good so I threw new compression rings in it, gapped them and was finished. I put NOS iron guides in it with some new valves I had bought years ago, made sure my used springs were not sagged according to Paul Dunstall's tuning manual. If you want me to email you a pdf copy of his manual shoot me your regular email address and I may be able to do it, it is less than 8mb file, lots of good Domi information in it even for stock rebuilds.
 
           I have my own valve grinding equipment so I kissed the seats of my head as lightly as I could to get the job done and threw the head together.
 
           Superblend main bearings that they put in 850 Commandos will go right into a Domi and they never go bad. I have a few used sets I saved out of Commandos I had scrapped out years ago and put a set in. Often you can get these from Norton engine rebuilders that they have taken out of engines that customers bought new ones for that are in excellent condition very cheaply.
 
           My crank rod journals looked very good with a micrometer so I cleaned the crank out, made sure there were no burrs inside it where they drilled the oil holes through and put it together with new std. rod shells. Before I had weighed all my reciprocating parts on a gram scale and balanced the crank on my kitchen table on two knife-edge levels.
           My Domi runs very smoothly and it is very powerful now. I put a plastic-caged drive-side layshaft roller bearing in the transmission as this is the one upgrade for these gearboxes that is so good it has to be done. The rest of the bearings looked very good, so I loctited the sleeve gear bearing in place, made sure my layshaft end-play was in spec and put it together, it shifts like slicing warm butter. A mouse could shift it from 3rd to high for me.
 
           Don't replace things just for the sake of replacing them, just the critical or safety items. If something is good use it, you may not be able to find modern replacements that are as good a quality.
 
            The 650-750 both had the same cranks, just balanced differently and are very easy to find. All 650-850 rods are interchangeable. 650 cylinders are hard to find but not as hard to find as 88 cylinders. 99 cylinders will work with a 650 crank as long as the bottoms of the cylinder sleeves are notched to clear the 650 crank and rods. So if you run across a good 650 or 99 cylinder for a decent price grab it, as you could run your engine as a 650 for a while, as long as you don't mind having extra torque and power and reliability.
 
              Oiling system: Very marginal on these bikes. The 650ss, 750 and all 64' and later Norton twins had higher capacity pumps, 66' and later doubled the speed of the pump with a new set of drive gears. A later pump and drive gears will bolt right onto your engine. You will have to carefully enlarge the oil passages to fit the larger passages on the pump body. Increasing oiling is not for racing, but for reliability and so you can push return oil through a Commando style oil filter, which will make your rod journals last way longer if you put high miles on the bike. The oil tank with the froth tower has a fitting that you run the engine breather to so oil consumption is improved quite a bit. Ex-Norton employee Heinz Kegler told me to leave the breather disc off the end of the cam and to drill a new hole in the crankcase where I did. I added the oil tank with the froth tower and put the old one on a shelf in the basement. Seems to work well. The later Dominator oil tanks can often be found very cheaply.  The 66' and later Dominators had plain rocker arm shafts with full pressure oiling to them. Your rockers have scrolled shafts with a low pressure feed to them off the return line to the oil tank. I left the old system on my 62' 650ss as I have seen bikes with this system go many thousands of miles with no problems. I had the parts and used them as it was easy to use them.  A top Norton engine builder here in the USA did tests and found out that if he drilled a new drain hole in the timing chest to lower it's oil level to the point where the crank timing pinion is just kissing the surface of the oil level, that the engine oil temperature dropped significantly. Easy to do on any Norton with a hand drill.
 
              Here is my 650ss going together here with details on the oiling mods:
        https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.248150218565584.56645.187441501303123&type=3
 
              So you get back to taking your good old time with the bike. There is a lot to learn and a lot of subtle things that can be done to improve it's reliability and practicality. . I was in a hurry to put my 62' together and although I did a decent job and it runs great, there are still things I would have done a little different if I had waited a while longer and taken more time on it. Hurrying was my no.1 enemy and it certainly was my bikes.     
 
              I guess that is enough to think about for tonight......
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:50:46 AM by beng »

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #132 on: October 14, 2013, 10:23:22 PM »
As we say down under sometimes "Crikey!" a lot of thought provoking information, I am fortunate to be at a stage where I haven't gone in any one direction too far so I will take stock of your comments.

I would be most grateful of the Dunstall manual.

I will send you a PM

Cheers

Kiwi

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2013, 11:07:55 PM »
Hi all

I am persevering with my re-build and I have a couple of questions I would like to pose to you all

I have had some very sound advice recently and following it has been very productive but I am interested in opinions on a couple of things.

Firstly; has anyone fitted the 6-start gears to an old pump (1962 Model 88 pump)??

What are the experiences or opinions on running the old pump faster and not bothering with high pressure feed so as to get better oil flow without the changes to the top end that high pressure feeds brings?

Is this a pointless exercise? It has been pointed out to me more than once that leaving things standard is most often best!

Second; I have acquired a used barrel that will re-bore to suit .020 over size pistons, but it has some broken fins. My old barrel (original) is in great shape on the outside but needs re sleeving if I am to use it.

My options as I see them are;  Use the new barrel, by cutting fins off the old original one and fixing the broken fins, then re-bore to .020 oversize. (I could by broken fins from a source here to do the same task but they will be random sizes etc)

Or; re sleeve my original  barrel back to standard.

Which way would you go here??

Curious

Kiwi

Kind Regards to all. 

 
 

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2013, 02:46:17 AM »
Definitely don't damage the fins on an otherwise good set of cylinders.
The future owner that hates this, and then needs to repair it, could be yourself... !!

Difficult to say which is the best way forward.
A lot of cylinders have been resleeved over the decades, well done this is a very effective repair.
Broken fins can also be repaired with sheet steel, if the welder knows what he is doing.
They need to be shaped or ground to size a bit first.

If your oil pump and motor are all in good condition, these motors did some big mileages back in their day.
So the oiling system is still quite capable.
It mentions somewhere to regularly place a finger over the oil outlet in the tank, to force oil up the lines to the head,
and give everything a good flush out - and oil.

Try what you have first, before playing with it, and fixing what ain't broke ... ?