Author Topic: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon  (Read 712 times)

Offline Jonny The Goat

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Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« on: January 15, 2018, 07:02:34 PM »
Hi, In my garage I have this old French bike. Its a 1930 Monet Goyon S17 with a incorrect tank on. Never really do much with it but I sort of like it. I have never been able to find out what the engine is. Its not correct for the bike as been on the French MG site in the past. No one there could ID it. I was told when I bought the bike it was a Villiers 250R, have not been able to find that engine ether and it looks a bit small to be 250 but have not had it apart to sure. Its a twin port with a nice bronze Amac carb. The exhaust connections at the head are screw threaded. The number I can see is very worn. Any ideas ? 

Offline mini-me

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 09:05:23 PM »
Its a 250cc Ancre de Bateau.

Offline Rex

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 09:21:12 AM »
Wrong model...this one's a 200cc Port-Stoppeur...

Offline 33d6

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2018, 09:45:21 AM »
Hi Jonny,
You'll be looking a long time for a Villiers 250R. They are so rare that Villiers didn't list them in any of their factory literature. Unlike all their other engines they never put out an operators handbook nor printed a spare parts list nor put them in any catalogue. If they were still around Villiers would even flatly tell you they don't exist.
Cheers,

Offline mini-me

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2018, 10:08:58 AM »
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/vintage-2-stroke-bike.56837/ :o :o :o ;) ;) ;)


A lot of French bikes used Villiers engines; Villiers engines were used in all sorts of industrial/agricultural uses.

  edit  I notice yours has a non detachable head, probably off a mower or the like.

France was a bit hard up in the 1930s, then there was that bit of embarrassment 1940-45 which did not help, the 50s were also hard economically. After 80 years its assuming a lot to believe all that iron belongs together, its probably a bitza, and looks to me as if the model number has been modified with a file.

I have seen some ingenious and appalling mods from the hard up or tight fisted to keep transport running from those eras. Somewhere I have a photo taken in Spain of a OHC Sq4 lashed up as a Harley look alike; you'd not believe such bodgery could be mobile.

The god of originality does not work everywhere there is an old bike.

Its a dog, but its yours to love.

PS that carb is not all Amac either,
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 05:25:36 PM by mini-me »

Offline mini-me

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 05:17:37 PM »
Monet Goyon 1930 with Villiers Brooklands  engine.

Offline mini-me

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 05:23:40 PM »
other side

Offline Jonny The Goat

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2018, 09:42:16 PM »
Na, the carb on in the picture is something I quickly stuck on to get it running as the Amac was constantly flooding. Hopefully it now all sorted as is back on though not running as well as my replacement but will sort that when I get time to tinker.

Offline Jonny The Goat

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2018, 10:01:01 PM »
I have also managed to find the original sales spiel that got me interested in this bike back when I bought it. Obviously with nothing other than what this says and no real providence I took it with a pinch of salt. What do you think ? The V5 I have gives a date of something like 1947 ( I do not have it to hand and do not remember if the reg No is transferable or not ) Any idea where the reg No is from ? It changed hands around a year before I bought it but apparently this was the first time in 30 years or so.
 
============================================================================
I have for sale this very special bike. It is a 1930-34 Monet Goyon 250cc series R Villiers engine racing bike. It was prepared for racing in the 30s and has a number of interesting period race features. It was raced through the 30s at many race tracks including the historic banked track at Brooklands in England.

The company Monet Goyon was formed in 1917 by Joseph Monet and Adrien Goyon. It began manufacturing invalid carriages for disabled war veterans. In 1920 they became agents for the British Autocycle company and then in 1922 produced their first motorcycle, a 100cc BMA (Biclyclette moteur auxiliaire). During the 20s they built an excellent reputation for sporty flat tank bikes such as the Z147 and 175. The company had considerable racing success including winning the Bol Dor six times between 1927 and 1948. The company continued to build bikes until its closure in 1959. The factory was in Macon, one hour north of Lyon.

After some investigation I believe this bike to be a R 250 Villiers engine bike manufactured between 1930 and 1934. I has a two speed gearbox operated by hand or foot change. I have been told that this unusual period modification was for push starts? It has period rear set foot pegs and low racing handlebars.

The condition of the bike is very good. It is better than oily rag and the paintwork is all original with a lovely patina. The tank is excellent with just a couple of small dents, nothing serious. The wheels are in excellent condition with good tyres. Overall the bike just looks right for a 30s racer. Mechanically it all seems good. No attempt has been made to start the bike and I believe it was last run some 30 years ago. The engine turns over fine with good compression. There is no spark but the HT lead does not appear to be well attached at the flywheel which could well be the problem. I don't think it will take a lot to get this bike running. The gearbox engages fine and the clutch works ok. The front brake needs adjusting the heel operated rear brake works well.

I acquired this bike in a group of bikes from a deceased estate. I would imagine that this bike is unique in the UK.

Once fettled and running this bike will grace any period bike event such as the coupes moto legend. It would be a lovely addition to any collection or museum.

I don't have a buy it now price as to be honest I don't know what the bike is worth.


Offline Jonny The Goat

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2018, 10:16:39 PM »
I do not think the number has been filed even though it looks bad. It seems to be deep in the metal and I do not think it was stamped but in the casting when it was done. Also it came with the for me impossible to use rear heal brake as well as both a hand change and foot change gear leaver with a stubby hand change leaver. There was no kick start and one could not be fitted. I have done a few easyily reversible mods since the photo like bringing the brake leaver in front of foot peg and removing the foot change leaver so i can fit a kick start, still need to work on that. It had no lights on and I fitted them though not wired up yet and may remove and fit number boards :). Its very hard to ride as you need to be of horse jockey size with your legs right up in a jockey position.  Not much going for it really as a riders bike but I just really like the look :).


Offline 33d6

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2018, 11:08:40 PM »
Jonny,
That engine isn't Villiers. There is nothing Villiers about it. For example, the flywheel magneto is definitely not Villiers. The whole style of the engine isn't Villiers. It is certainly not 'racing' Villiers. Villiers entered the 1923 Ultra Lightweight TT with a fixed head engine like your example and found very quickly they had overheating issues. The next year they came back with the Super Sport TT engine having an alloy head and alloy piston and from then on until Villiers ceased production sporting Villiers engines used alloy head and pistons and only Villiers 'cooking' engines were fixed iron head.
 
Monet Goyon imported Villiers engines through the 1920's and won a lot of races in the 175cc class using Villiers engines. So much so that other French makers forced through a rule insisting that only home grown French engines could be used whereupon Monet Goyon started making Villiers engines under licence. They are very similar to Villiers but not 100% identical. Your engine may be one of them.

 Pre war Villiers engines are dead easy to identify as they all had a clearly stamped letter prefix before the individual engine number. The ID numbers/letters on the back of the cylinder are internal factory casting numbers for foundry identification purposes, nothing else. If there are no engine numbers stamped on the crankcase then it isn't Villiers. If there are engine numbers stamped in then say what they are.

I think your V5 saying 1947 could be correct. The French industry were still using girder forks then, especially in the light weight field. Have a look at other French lightweights and you will see it.
Cheers,

Offline R

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2018, 03:42:57 AM »
Monet Goyon made a heck of a lot of 2 stroke models, for quite some years.
Keep clicking, your model is probably there - someplace. !
http://www.monet-goyon.net/2tempsAVG.html

Both my Villiers powered beasties of 125cc and 225 cc had exhaust pipes which screwed on with a fine threaded large exhaust nut.  This was very common over the years ? Very robust too.
The licence built ones used the same system, by the looks of it  ?

Offline 33d6

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 05:16:54 AM »
Hi R,
In the main early Villiers did not use screwed on exhaust nuts. They started with the 125cc 9D in 1936 and the 197cc 3E in 1938 but the majority of Villiers exhausts in the 1920's and 30's used either a clamp on a stub style or bolt on flanges. The first screwed exhaust nuts were of a castellated style and only in the 1950's did they finally move to the finned nut as shown on the mystery engine. I'd be interested to finally know what make the mystery engine is but it didn't come out of the Villiers factory.

Neither do I understand the difficulty in dating the bike itself. As you rightly point out there are several Monet Goyon sources available on the web. Monet-Goyon have a solid following in France. It's not as if it is an impossibly early veteran or an obscure make produced only for two or three years. People know Monet Goyon well.

I look forward to some solid information.
Cheers,

Offline Rex

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 10:12:17 AM »
I'm always a bit sceptical when sellers claim some sort of racing link, then in the next sentence say that they don't really know; still, it looks like a fun bike either way. The reg number doesn't appear to be age-related, so unless someone has done a ring-job then it seems the bike has been in the UK for some time rather than a Kempton dreamers bike.
Even if it had been an import in the early days of Ebay (as mine was) it would still be wearing an age-related plate.
Mine was a 1936 ALS2 (or ALS3, I forget) and even though it had an OHV engine with exposed hair-pin valve springs, 4-speed box, Webb-style girders and a soft-soldered pie-crust tank it was still dull, and soon sold back to French.

Offline mini-me

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Re: Whats this engine in 1930's Monet Goyon
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 10:44:57 AM »
That original ad is full of BS, an upfront dealer would have been subject to prosecution, its a tissue of lies, assumptions and downright ignorance.
Its typical of the crap spouted in ebay ads by sellers of these imports, mostly opportunist "antique"  dealers doing the rounds of the french
 brocantes.

As for that reg its got to be fake, I cannot believe that was imported into this country in 1947. No way. 

This....
Quote
Obviously with nothing other than what this says and no real providence I took it with a pinch of salt. What do you think ? The V5 I have gives a date of something like 1947 ( I do not have it to hand and do not remember if the reg No is transferable or not ) Any idea where the reg No is from ?

.....Is that seller telling you he has found out he bought a pile of crap for an excessive price and now wishes to unload it. 

None of my  my V5s "give a something like date". ::)

"I took it with a pinch of salt" I'd need enough to grit the M1 to swallow that spiel.


I ought not to get wound up about crap bikes but I still remember the real trouble I had to sell  good honest  bikes years ago, I never sold a dud, and always stood by what I sold, only to see people buy scrappers from my rivals at bigger prices. Then they'd came moaning to me about it. >:( >:(
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:53:17 AM by mini-me »