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Messages - 33d6

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1
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 17, 2025, 12:41:27 AM »
No one seems to know much about the Brooklands Ralf. There are lots of illustrations, sketches, photos and soon but near zero practical technical information.
Years ago I chased up everything I could about the Villiers engines used in the 1924-25 175cc Ultra Lightweight TT’s and found lots of drawings showing various internals but you never know how accurate they are and they don’t have dimensions anyway. Plus of course they used a hotted up Sport in 1924 and the prototype Super Sport in 1925. It earned its full name, the Super Sport TT the hard way.
The Brooklands appeared in 1925 and seemed intentionally designed for flat out track work without any need for going up and down the mountain as in the Isle of Man.
It’s all now rather a mystery no one seems to know anything.
Finally your piston is obviously an oversize 175 job. Standard bore was 57.15 mm so it would seem the engine has had a rebore at some stage. No surprise there at all. I think I’d be far more surprised if it was still on standard bore.
Sorry this isn’t very helpful.

2
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 16, 2025, 02:45:39 AM »
Hi again Ralf,
I don’t think it is a Brooklands crankshaft. I can’t see Villiers making a full circle crankshaft in that fashion when they had their own forging shop in house. Forging a full circle crank would make a much sturdier foundation for what they had in mind. Parts 214/219 go down that track. That’s my thoughts anyway.
Your piston is intriguing. I don’t recognise the part number but that’s no surprise, and the 14.22mm gudgeon pin is 9/16”, a fairly common oversize repair on the standard Villiers 1/2” pin. I’ve seen that one on a few old engines.
The 96mm overall height is more or less the standard Super Sport piston dimension while the 46mm compression height is more or less the old plain Sport compression height. Perhaps it is a true Brooklands piston. How frustrating not being able to get original Brooklands data.
Last thing, what is the piston diameter?
I did have thoughts it could be a 196cc Super Sport piston but I think that’s a step too far.
Cheers,

3
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 14, 2025, 12:09:26 AM »
As it’s drilled and appears to be full circle behind the padding it can’t really be anything else but a Brooklands crank can it.
The padding appears to be aluminium, can you confirm?
This is my first view of a genuine Brooklands crank. Any chance of a few extra photos?
Your engine is a comfort in many ways. It shows there are still pearls to be found if you look far enough.

4
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 13, 2025, 10:22:51 AM »
Both my “T” Sports have the standard triangular inlet port as shown on your right cylinder as does the solitary Super Sport cylinder I have.
I’ve always believed this was done to smooth out and quieten the inlet gas flow. That squaring the port as on the L/H one causes a sharp cracking sound and disrupts the gas flow. True or not I can’t bring myself to make any sort of irreversible alteration to an original cylinder so I’ll never know.
Two-stroke technology has advanced so much that no matter what is done to these old three port deflector piston engines they are not remotely competitive so I tune for sweetness and dependability.
Last question. Is the crankshaft plain or drilled for lubrication purposes?

5
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 13, 2025, 06:56:23 AM »
Hi Ralf,
I think I made a complete hash of the cylinder head and the longer Brooklands holding down bolts. Just ignore it. I was writing drivel.
 I have since been going through my No 22 list and comparing it to your photos. As you say, it just raises more questions. According to the list all three 172cc engines have different conrods even though they share the same bore and stroke (57.15x67mm) but the base Sports engine shares its conrod with all the interwar years 150cc engines (Mks 6,7&8C plus the different bore and stroke Mks 12 & 15C) whilst the Super Sport shares its conrod with the interwar years 196cc engines. The Mks 1 & 2E and the 196cc Super Sport.
Of the three the Brooklands stands alone not sharing its conrod with anything. Nor does the 7A share its conrod with any other Villiers engine. It’s hard to guess the engine builders intentions. Are the transfer and exhaust ports untouched? Your photos appear to show an untouched inlet port.
Finally we come to the full circle crankshaft. What engine did it come from? What is underneath the padding? And is it plain or drilled for the Villiers automatic lube system.
Altogether an interesting but frustrating little beast.
Cheers,

6
British Bikes / Re: Villiers 172cc brooklands engine?
« on: January 11, 2025, 01:09:26 AM »
What an interesting engine. As you surmise it’s not ” pure “ Brooklands but something built up with available parts. Nothing wrong with that as long as you understand what you are doing.
It’s easy enough to identify all the various parts, about the only tricky bits are the Brooklands head and piston. It’s not easy to tell them apart from their SuperSport equivalent. The head is not too hard, the obvious difference is the length of the cylinder head bolts. 4” on the Brooklands, 2&5/8” on the Super Sport.
I have no practical information on the pistons. I’ve never seen original factory Brooklands or Super Sports pistons, only aftermarket Super Sport. I have a new aftermarket Super Sport piston to hand but how accurate a replica is it? There is always a whisper of doubt.
It’s easy enough to run through a Villiers parts list to check out the rest. I have the No 22 parts list which is laid out like an Excel spreadsheet so is effortless to see what bits and pieces are interchangeable between what engines. Makes life easy. My copy came from the VMCC Library.
I’m not quite sure why you are concerned about the year of manufacture. As it’s not a factory original does it matter? It would be nice to know its provenance but is it essential?
Cheers,

7
Japanese Bikes / Re: Marusho Lilac Le Mans
« on: January 01, 2025, 01:36:53 AM »
Hi John,
Sorry about that. Haven’t been paying this site much attention lately.

I no longer have that tray of Lilac records. I’ve sorted and reorganised them into the standard format and returned them to the archive. I no longer have access.

The deal is that I get two trays at a time. One car and one bike. I get to choose which make of bike. So far the car make has been Ford. We have them by the million. It’s a monumentally boring task but we can’t move forward with digitising them all until they’re first in proper order. Discussing my findings on here is light relief from a brain sucking mindless activity.

Your member can easily make his own enquiry at the AOMC site, www.aomc.asn.au .The engine number records button is on their front page.







8
British Bikes / Re: James ML with no spark
« on: December 17, 2024, 03:50:53 AM »
Thank you for the confirming information and photos.
Further to the advice already given the middle photo seems to show the red wire being crushed with a possible cut through the insulation. Instant failure if it has. It needs to be laid down deep and as close as possible to the back plate. There must be no chance of contact with the rear of the flywheel. I also believe its current location is preventing the flywheel from seating properly hence your problem there.

Villiers also fitted a rubber grommet where the red wire enters the points box so as to eliminate any chance of a short circuit occurring. You now have the additional green condenser wire coming through the same hole. I would think carefully how you could improve the present layout.

The external condenser is an old and successful competition mod. There are a few others I could list if you wish. All aimed purely at improving reliability and dependability.

Finally, wear in the moving points pivot hole causes the ignition timing to wander back and forth. Check yours for wear. Later points boxes are bushed and bushes are available from Villiers Services. Space is tight but if you have the facilities it is possible to rebush the early bronze boxes. Sloppy timing reduces power.

I think the coil is fine, your red wire is the problem.

9
British Bikes / Re: James ML with no spark
« on: December 15, 2024, 01:36:21 AM »
The James ML was fitted with theVilliers 9D engine. This 125cc unit was introduced in 1936 and made up to1949 being steadily improved and upgraded over that time. The complete unit is totally interchangeable but not necessarily all the various upgrades. This can lead to interesting problems such as yours.
Before we start could you please provide a little more information such as the engine number and whether it was running when you got it. Do you actually have a manual for it? What is its history? Anything else we should know?
All very dull I know but the more information we have at the start the sooner the problem may be resolved.

10
British Bikes / Re: 196 super sport inlet manifold
« on: October 17, 2024, 01:46:22 PM »
Yes, Villiers did eventually move to bronze manifolds. Seems to have started in the late thirties as I have 9D engines with brass manifolds. They last much better than aluminium but boy, are they heavy.

If I ever make any more they will be bronze.

11
British Bikes / Re: 196 super sport inlet manifold
« on: October 17, 2024, 04:47:12 AM »
I am curious. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen a bronze Villiers carb seemingly bonded onto an aluminium manifold.  Aluminium  and bronze is not a happy electrolytic combination. Over a long period the aluminium corrodes away and sort of bonds into the bronze carb body. This is not really a problem as long as the joint isn’t disturbed and the owner treats both items as a single unit, removing both manifold and carb together and keeping them together but unfortunately this is a rare occurrence. They began life as separate items and the owner reasonably expects them to continue this way.

This may have been what’s happened here. It’s an ancient motor cycle, the manifold and carb have had a very long time together for electrolytic activity to occur, then along comes an enthusiastic owner who separates the two for cleaning and renovation finding the manifold “shrunk “ when  the corrosion is cleaned off.

The same problem remains. How to fix it. I tend towards permanent solutions. I really don’t like the bits of shim or aluminium can route. In addition to my two previous suggestions I’d consider a thin sleeve. Trueing up the current stub and the permanently fixing on a thin sleeve with Araldite or similar. This would all depend on how sturdy the original stub is when cleaned up.

12
British Bikes / Re: 196 super sport inlet manifold
« on: October 16, 2024, 08:10:43 AM »
As from the factory the 196 Super Sport had a Villiers Medium Weight (MW) carburettor. This clips on to a 1.125” machined mounting stub on the inlet manifold. The carb itself has several fine slits (usually four) in the clamping area allowing the clamp to squeeze it down on to the machined stub.
You have two issues here.
Firstly the manifold stub is worn out of round and under size. It is a machined surface and should contain no casting marks. I suspect those you describe to be wear and tear.
Secondly, the fine slits mentioned above will be closed up due to previous owners tightening the clamp more and more trying to take up the stub wear. You cannot clip the carb on firmly until they are returned to as made. It is no great problem to gently ease them back out to size again. I use a specially tuned solid steel stub for the job but the right size ball pein hammer should do just as well. Just remember slow and gentle.

When the carb is back to size you can start on the manifold. Perfection is a new manifold, been there done that but it’s a real pain no matter how you go about it. Secondly you can replace just the stub, turning up a new one to have it welded in place of the old. Also fraught with drama as welding new to old aluminium is a tricky business. Villiers did concede a sliver of shim brass as suggested by R as a temporary fix and basically that’s all you can do until you get a better one. Shim brass is available in many thicknesses so no drama .
You’ve already found out that plastics and such aren’t keen on prolonged contact with petrol. Brass doesn’t care that much

13
British Bikes / Re: How to turn off a pre war motorcycle that has no ignition.
« on: October 11, 2024, 01:59:07 AM »
The valve lifter is your friend. It helps start the engine, it stops it and can be of great assistance with maintaining control in some situations such as off road and descending a steep embankment or the like.

Using the valve lifter to set the engine in the correct starting position, cracking open the throttle a whisker, plus giving what the Army used to call  “a long swinging kick” sets you up for relaxed starting with no dramas.
Then once learned, you have a technique applicable to most every old fashioned single out there.

And finally, once learned you never forget. It’s like riding a bicycle. The muscle memory kicks in and you can do it no matter how long the break since last time.

Best of luck, it’s a nice looking bike. Now we need a photo of it being used in anger.

14
British Bikes / Re: Amal 276 carb
« on: August 21, 2024, 02:40:22 AM »
I think you’re venturing into unknown territory here. There are too many unknowns for any of us to give a confident answer. You don’t say why you feel it necessary to bore out a carb rather than, for example, just fit a bigger one. More information please.

15
British Bikes / Re: Villiers chain ?
« on: August 01, 2024, 12:06:37 AM »
Be very wary of using bicycle chain equivalent sizes. It can be of a much lighter grade than the equivalent motorcycle size. It is not expected to transmit anywhere near the power nor do the speed and distance of a motorcycle so is not built to do so.
Of course with the increased use of electric bikes and sports like mountain bikes I suspect some bicycle chain is much tougher than the common stuff. Just look carefully before you leap.
Tell us how you get on.

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