Author Topic: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission  (Read 20368 times)

Offline bsaben

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My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« on: March 02, 2006, 01:52:33 AM »
Hi,

Does anybody have any experience of working on a Yamaha Fazer (FZS600). My son's bike has developed a slight transmission whine above 40MPH. Any ideas as to the likely cause? and if it's a bearing that needs replacing can this be done with the engine in the bike or is it a major strip down? Any help whatsoever will be greatly appreciated as I have zero knowledge of modern bikes.

Ben.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2006, 12:35:04 PM »
Hi,

An overtight drivechain will destroy the bearing and eventually, the oil seal on the gearbox output shaft.

You may be able to detect play in the bearing by gripping the sprocket and trying to move it up and down, and fore and aft.

If any play is found, the bearing is certainly damaged, and the crankcases will have to be split to replace it.

It may be possible to do this without disturbing the top end.

A.


Offline zigzag

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2006, 09:37:52 PM »
This is an engine out,and major strip down job,It's only a worn bearing,gear or shaft,I would recommend this work to be done by a skilled mechanic,as there are so many things to check and replace,and the special tools required,My old FJ 1100 gearbox whines like hell,but i can't be bothered to fix it,It's not going to blow up,It will go on for ages,but in your case do you spend all that money getting it fixed,or p/x it at a lower value for another bike.

Trust me i'm a mechanic.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 04:30:38 PM »
Hi B,

This is in two parts because the site wouldn't accept it as one post.

Part 1

Running the machine with a duff output shaft bearing will cause the shafts to run out of line.  This will cause excess wear on the gear teeth and the oil seal to leak  oil.  Parrticles of hardened steel hopefully would be caught by the oil filter, but if this is heavily contaminated the by-pass valve will allow unfiltered oil to reach the bearings.  Contaminated oil is death to bearings, especially if it contains hardened steel particles.

Don't assume it will run for ages.  It might, but if the cage breaks up the bearing will collapse, causing balls or rollers and bits of the cage will to be let loose among the gearbox internals causing catastrophic failure, further damage and possible lock up of the 'box and hence the rear wheel which, because it's gearbox failure, cannot be freed by pulling in the clutch lever.  Then it really would be expensive to fix.  And if this happens at any sort of speed, the locked rear wheel would likely cause the rider to take an excursion up the road on his arse.  Not good.  It may then be cheaper to buy a secondhand engine than to fix the original.  And accident damaged bikes are nearly always more expensive to fix than engines and gearboxes.  A stay in hospital with consequent earnings loss is not cheap either.

First, research the job, but don't believe all you hear.  Get (from your local library) a copy of a motorcycle maintenance and repair book ("Tuning for Speed and Economy", while still relevant for modern motorcycles, and "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" are not good examples) and a Haynes manual if they do one (provided your bike is not the newer Fazer with the R6 type engine, I think they do), and pay attention to the advice therein.

A set of combination spanners and two basic socket sets (half inch and three-eights inch drive) of reasonable quality (Draper are quite good, especially the Expert range, which they say carry a "lifetime" warranty although I have never tested this), along with an impact screwdriver, allen keys, ball pein hammers of two sizes and a rubber mallet.  Circlip pliers may be required, so buy or borrow.

Two good quality torque wrenches, one ranging up to around 40lbs/ft for the smaller bolts, and the other to cover torque settings up to the lower 100s will be needed.  This larger instrument is for engine bolts and the rear sprocket nut, which could need up to 80/90lbs/ft.  If you find torque wrenches to borrow and the owner has not returned them to zero after their last use, then politely refuse them, as, if this is normal practice with this tool, the spring will weaken and it will require a new spring and re-calibration.  Mind you, an accurate spring balance with a suitable range can be used either to calibrate an out-of-spec torque wrench or, if used in conjunction with a measured length at the point of force on a breaker bar or smaller bar for lower values, with the use of the correct maths can be a very acceptable substitute although a little awkward to use.

This continues below.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 04:31:46 PM »
Hi,

Part 2
 
Yamaha do not use many machine-specific special tools, and problems as they arise, with careful and creative thinking can often be overcome.

Your most useful tool could be a competent friend, but beware of "mechanics" whose own machines don't run sweetly, leak oil, rattle, clatter and make other strange noises, have chewed-up screw heads, and have gasket goo squeezed out from between the joints.

Even if you have to spend £200 on tools (£200 worth of Draper Expert tools would cost £800+ if you had to have Snap-On, for example) consider these an investment as you can use them again and again.  And again and again and again.  Like Jane.  I still have and use tools I bought or was given as much as 40 years ago.  

The parts cost should not be high as the gaskets for side casings could be re-used and bearing and seal could be as little as £20 from a bearing specialist to around £50 for Yamaha parts.  If disassembly is done with care (as it should be) and gaskets sticking to both faces are teased from the faces using a thin steel rule as the casing is being removed few other parts should be needed.

Great care should be taken at all times and cleanliness is extremely important.  Do not rush the job, especially re-assembly.

If the machine is not fixed, its value would be substantially reduced; even more so if it starts to leak oil, or if the gearbox fails completely.  It really is a case of "a stitch in time saves nine" as if it is attended to soon enough, the other bearing on the shaft should be ok.

Take it to a Yamaha specialist, ask their opinion and get a price for the job.  You will probably find that a £200 tool cost is about one half to two thirds of the labour charges estimated depending on where you live.

If your son learns how to maintain and repair his own machines properly, much money can be saved by doing it himself, providing it is done well.

Personally, I started "spannering" as soon as I started riding pushbikes as my dad had a very good toolbox, and a bench and vice in the shed, and was of the opinion that if I wanted to ride it, I would have to learn to fix it.  At eight.  So I suppose that gives me an "advantage" over those with the funds to "have it repaired" at the local shop.

A local Technical College in your area may run a short course on motor or motorcycle engineering which could be useful for learning new skills - I knew a girl who, being a student and being sick of getting ripped off by more than two or three small repairers especially for MOT preparation, enrolled at the local tech at my instigation.  She is now quite competent at general work and has enrolled in a "Recreational Metalwork" class to make special parts for a custom bike she is building.
 
I assume from your "handle" that you are Ben, a BSA enthusiast, who has no experience of Japanese machinery, but some of British bikes.  If that is the case, don't be put off.  But equally, don't assume (as I believe you don't) that all practices considered acceptable for old British machines are ok for Jap. bikes.  Use of an accurate torque wrench, for example is more than just good practice, it is essential.  This is a tool I had never heard of  before starting to work on Japanese bikes.  

If you have ever successfuly fixed anything on your Brit. bike, then have a go.  Conquer your fear of multi cylinders, horizontally split crankcases and overhead camshafts.  You might find some truth in the opinion held by many that Jap. bikes are easier to work on than Brits.  I think that they are just different.

Finally, don't start the job unless you are going to persevere and finish it, and don,t make do with shoddy workmanship by yourself.  Remember, its yours, and if it breaks or "lies down" on you, you're the one who has the indignity of walking home with a red face or cadging a lift from some gloating rider who's opinion is that it can't or won't happen to him 'cause he gets some shop to do his work (at £50 or £60 an hour), or he only buys bikes with warranty so they'll be fixed "for free".

These are my own opinions and I appologise for rambling on, but I do hope someone somewhere, if not yourself, gets something from this.

But I do hope it helps you.

The best of luck to you,

A.


Offline zigzag

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 03:32:08 AM »
I repair motorcycles for a living,and can tell you that to disassemble and reassemble a fazer gearbox requires the use of a hydraulic press.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2006, 01:25:02 PM »
Hi zigzag,

Would you be kind enough to tell us what for?

I must confess, I have never stripped a Fazer.

Anyway, if essential, a press and a competent operator shouldn't be that hard to find.

Maybe you could also tell us of anything to stop the bottom crankcase half being removed without disturbing the top-end, whether or not Haynes do a Manual to suit, or anything else useful, for example, where you obtained your information.

You, as a professional mechanic, would have access to resources the home mechanic does not, such as "trade knowledge" and possibly even personal experience of this particular model.

Posting such information would be useful as users of this site may be more inclined to attempt jobs of this nature than the average owner.

A.

Offline zigzag

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 05:51:42 AM »
There are certain gears,gear bushings and bearings on both mainshaft, and driveshaft that are a press fit,

The bottom crankcase can be removed without disturbing the top end,allthough there is a fair bit to come off the sides off the engine to enable you to split the crankcases,

This is a vintage/classic web site,so if anyone wants info on bikes like the Fazer then there are sites like the fazer owners club.

I don't come on this site to discuss modern bikes.


Offline bsaben

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2006, 07:19:55 PM »
Hi zigzag,

I appreciate your input, we are all bikers and info from any quater is worth having.

Regards,

Ben.

Offline zigzag

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2006, 07:37:57 AM »
Hello Ben, I've given options and opinions on your sons fazer,These engines are not built like the ones we rode and repaired in the 1960s,there a lot more complicated,and as such need to be repaired by specialist people,There have been quite a few modifications made to the fazer gearbox since it's introdution because it was weak,...I can give you a blow by blow account of how to strip the engine,but i can't see,or feel whats wrong with the gearbox,

Reards Jeff.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 09:00:17 PM »
Hi,

Haynes definately do a manual for this bike, as follows.
____________
Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat & FZS600 Fazer (96 - 03)  
 
 YZF600R Thundercat  599cc  96 - 03  
 FZS600 Fazer  599cc  98 - 03  
Note: Does not include the 2003-on FZ6  
 
 Book No: 3702  
ISBN: 1 84425 152 7  
Web price: £19.99
Availability: In Stock  
____________

Visit your local library and try to get the book there. The librarian may even be able to get it for you. In any case, it may be useful to look at other Haynes books to see if you could work from them, and see what DIY books the library has to cover "modern" motorcycle mechanics.

Don't be afraid of "complicated" Jap. engines. It's not brain surgery or rocket science, just carefull and thoughtfull work.

Be prepared to learn, do what the books say, and get the essential tools even if you have to buy them.

Go on, have a go!

All the best,

A.


Offline bsaben

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2006, 01:24:58 AM »
Thank you to everbody that has contributed, (a good excuse to go in and see Nicola, my favourite Librarian)now where did I leave that hammer and chisel! Seriously though having been brave enough to take a spin up the road on the back of the Fazer I couldn't hear any noise at all, probably because I was too busy hanging on for dear life. I don't think the problem is serious but I will get Dave (my son) to keep an ear on it and may well "go in" with spanners a blazin' should it start causing concern. HAPPY BIKING TO ONE AND ALL.

Ben.

Offline lxmlvll

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2006, 05:43:07 AM »
Hi,

I "googled" "yamaha FZS600 Fazer gearbox problems or failures", and the first site of "about 10" offers "Lost your front sprocket and washer???-wwwezboard.com".  Here's the link - http://p196.ezboard.com/ffazerownersfrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=2377.topic&start=41&stop=60  
Intrigued, I clicked on this and was swept onto the fairly active forum of the Fazer Owners Club (unofficial) where I found, among other things, links to download both parts and service manuals. I tried two links from one of the last posts on that thread, one for a parts manual, the other a service manual. After a little perseverance I finally induced this little device to pay heed to my request of a download of these items and soon there appeared two files, one each for parts and service, opening up in turn in the same window.
These "manuals" provide ample information for the stripdown and rebuild of this motor.  Sadly the service manual shows clearly that the top end WILL have to be removed to split the 'cases in order to remove upper crankcase bolts 1 and 2.  
Although a bit ambitious for the beginner, I still think that a job like this is within the capabilities of the private owner provided he takes the greatest of care and looks for solutions for the problems he will face.  Shortcuts can be taken, special tools are often easily made and cable ties can be useful.  Repair it at minimum cost, only replacing parts and gaskets which show damage and taking care to strip and change as little as possible (given that it was running fine beforehand and so should need little doing).  
For example, don't remove the pistons from the rods if it is possible to remove and replace the offending bolts with them in situ, bearing in mind the pistons and rings should be treated with care.  Check that all rings are free in their grooves by sliding them in and out rather than sliding them round in their grooves, so that the pistons can be refitted with the ring gaps in as close as possible the same position as when they came out.  
Any fault found would need to be rectified although a complete rebuild should not be necessary unless it's nacked anyway.  You never did tell us the year and mileage of this horse, but the older, less valuable it is, the closer it is to the nacker's yard, and a f**ked gearbox does it.  Fix it.  You haven't much to lose.  Do your research, get your tools organised and get started before it gets worse.  But be careful you don't damage it trying to fix it.

All the best, let us know what happens.

A,      

I assume the Victor's yours.  Well, if you can keep that thing going, you should be able to fix the fazer  ;)

Offline bsaben

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Re: My son's Yamaha Fazer noisey transmission
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2006, 04:21:10 PM »
Thanks for that lxmlvll, I will check it out, the Fazer is 1999 with 20,000 miles on the clock and is in very good condition.

Cheers,


Ben.