Engine & Gearbox ??

[bob66]

Help would be greatly appreciated in identifying and confirming this engine and gearboxes found in an old barn. The engine had a Brown & Barlow carb fitted, the marking 82x120 seems to suggest it's a 633cc Norton but I can't make sense of the BA2580 serial No.
The Sturmey Archer gearbox appears to be a CS3 3-speed but I don't know if it came off the same Bike. The other gearbox has only the marking PATENT H  5007 it's 2-speed with ratios of 1:1 or 1:0.6  the output shaft on the opposite side being lefthand thread and is a complete mystery
Anyone any thoughts what they might be from ?   Hope the photos help .

[cardan]

I'm not sure I can give full answers, but let me have a go anyway.
Norton engine numbers went a bit funny during the years 1915-1920 when they used the year as the first two digits of the engine number: so 15xxx is a 1915 engine, 20xxx is 1920 etc. Norton seem to have given this scheme up c1921 and gone back to "ordinary" numbers. 2580 is probably a c1921 number - the detail of the motor looks about right for this date. My best guess at the date of my 79x100 no. 42xx is c1922. That said I am unfamiliar withe the BA prefix. Can anyone accurately date Norton motors from the very early 1920s? How about frame numbers - my model 17C is frame number 3007. Any ideas?
The B&B carb looks good for Norton.
The Sturmey Archer CS gearbox can be dated from its serial number, which is stamped around the outside of the curved section and will start with CS. It could have started life on the Model 1 (Big Four) Norton.
The gearbox will be Douglas, but is slightly unusual as it is the kick-start version. The people over at douglasmotorcycles.net are friendly and knowledgeable about such things.

Leon

[bob66]

Thanks for your help Leon, the Sturmey  Archer Gearbox has the serial number  CS58567L  stamped on the curved section,
 with a N stamped on the flat side of the box,   the 2-speed box has 163 stamped on both castings.

[RichP]

How far back do the Norton records at the VMCC go ? I've held that venerable oldest ledger in my hands but it was a while ago and I can't remember. It is 1921 or 22 as far as I recall.

They can certainly tell you what the earliest recorded number is.

[cardan]

I have some Sturmey Archer data collected by the Raleigh Club some years back that gives CS50000 as the highest number for 1921 and CS70000 as the highest number for 1922, which puts your gearbox somewhere in the early part of 1922 - but they don't claim accuracy to better than about half a year. There may be more exact lists somewhere, for both the Norton engine and the Sturmey gearbox, but it is certainly possible they both came from the same bike. Close enough anyway. Now just find a frame. And forks. And wheels. And... it's getting tricky these days, but not yet impossible.

I will have to check with the VMCC re their Norton lists. I asked years ago (were the lists held by a library then?) and was told frame number 3007 was before the lists started. Any suggestions welcome.

Leon

[m3bobby]

I have some Sturmey Archer data collected by the Raleigh Club some years back that gives CS50000 as the highest number for 1921 and CS70000 as the highest number for 1922, which puts your gearbox somewhere in the early part of 1922 - but they don't claim accuracy to better than about half a year. There may be more exact lists somewhere, for both the Norton engine and the Sturmey gearbox, but it is certainly possible they both came from the same bike. Close enough anyway. Now just find a frame. And forks. And wheels. And... it's getting tricky these days, but not yet impossible.

I will have to check with the VMCC re their Norton lists. I asked years ago (were the lists held by a library then?) and was told frame number 3007 was before the lists started. Any suggestions welcome.

Leon

Leon, If this is your page, very nice mate.

http://users.senet.com.au/~mitchell/bikes/norton/norton.htm

[m3bobby]

I have some Sturmey Archer data collected by the Raleigh Club some years back that gives CS50000 as the highest number for 1921 and CS70000 as the highest number for 1922, which puts your gearbox somewhere in the early part of 1922 - but they don't claim accuracy to better than about half a year. There may be more exact lists somewhere, for both the Norton engine and the Sturmey gearbox, but it is certainly possible they both came from the same bike. Close enough anyway. Now just find a frame. And forks. And wheels. And... it's getting tricky these days, but not yet impossible.

I will have to check with the VMCC re their Norton lists. I asked years ago (were the lists held by a library then?) and was told frame number 3007 was before the lists started. Any suggestions welcome.

Leon

[RichP]

 

I will have to check with the VMCC re their Norton lists. I asked years ago (were the lists held by a library then?) and was told frame number 3007 was before the lists started. Any suggestions welcome.

Leon

Leon, how long ago is years ago ? They have had the original ledgers from the Science Museum for the last three or four years rather than just microfilm.

I was there last year looking at mid-thirties stuff and although I casually browsed the first book out of interest, I just can't remember which year it was. It must have been quite a low number as I remember thinking that Nortons must have started with a new numbering system post-WW1 which you have now confirmed.

Well worth an e-mail to Annice at the VMCC library I think. One of the few archives that I've visited that actually seems to like sharing information.

[cardan]

Thanks for that - I have emailed Annice and will let you know how I go.

Regarding numbering, I'm not sure that Norton did actually begin again after the war. Certainly the 20xxx used for 1920 engine numbers disappeared, but I don't know the first number of the new series! It may have been close to a match for the frame number. The motor I found for my bike is 4812, which I suspect is around 1922, and the motor in this thread is 2580. From the scant survivors, it seems likely that Norton frames were numbered sequentially from "the beginning" - that 3007 is an early 1920s frame number is a reminder that Norton were a very small manufacturer in the early days. Bob Holliday suggest fewer than 100 machines were built in 12 months in the early days of WW1. I'd love to hear the story of early Norton numbers from someone who really knows!!

[bob66]

Thanks for all the help, I'm still puzzled by the engine No prefix of BA, I don't suppose this could be a Military marking ie British Army??    

[RichP]

Bob, I don't think that it is an indication of a military connection. I would then expect to find a broad arrow or WD.

Until Norton's success with the War Office in 1935, I believe that the aborted Russian WW1 contract machines were their only prior sales.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that the assembly book survives. If not, well...it's a gorgeous lump  

[cardan]

Annice at the VMCC library kindly looked at the Norton records for me. They start at engine number 4200 in November 1922 - so it looks like Bob's engine 2580 comes sometime earlier - probably 1921. I can't add anything about the BA prefix.

My engine 4812 left the factory in February 1923, fitted to a "Model 2" frame number 7214. A model 2 is a somewhat "colonial" version of the home market model 16H, which is fitting if it was sent to Australia.

Dating my frame 3007 is still a problem. Annice tells me engine 4200 left the factory in frame 42975, but that would be a strange number for that date. I'll have to do more research. Perhaps if someone is visiting the VMCC library they can study the first book of records and fill us in on early Norton Numbers!

Cheers

Leon

[RichP]

Nice to hear that you've had some definite clarification Leon.  Those frame numbers are a puzzle though aren't they ? I know that even into the 1930s there is little evidence of Nortons using a 'first in - first out' system in their parts stores. Consecutive engines have frames, forks, fuel tanks etc. thousands apart.

Let's hope the Norton Club get their searchable database up and running soon so that we can find components other than engines.

I fully intend to go back to the VMCC but I'm overseas now as well and I think that this summer's trip is going to be for the Norton day. Rest assured that I'll be in touch next time I'm planning to go so I can be certain of looking for exactly what you're after.

Rich

[cardan]

Thanks for the offer Rich - any info appreciated. Here is my "project" as it stands at the moment:

[bob66]

Many Thanks again for all the help, especially to  Leon.
It's been decided to sell the Norton engine , B&B carb and the Sturmey Archer gearbox,
 let's hope someone can bring this piece of history back to Life !
Further details can be found in the Autojumble Section

                                    Cheers  Bob.