Flat tank BSA oiling

[JFerg]

I have a hand pump and sight feed reputedly ex-BSA on my bike.

It is a total loss system, with a Best and Lloyd pump feeding to the sight glass.

Problem is that the bike is over-oiling quite badly, spraying liquid oil all over the back wheel, and dripping from the pipe.  The oil pump is set at "OFF" already, so can't be cracked back any further, and it's a known phenomenon that B&L pumps pump way too much.

There is a needle valve in the line to the sight glass, as part of the hand pump casting, but it seems not to do anything at all, no matter how tightly it is wound in.  The tapered needle itself is truncated, and does not come to any sort of point.

Question is, what should that needle look like?  Should it taper to a point?

thanks,
JFerg

[chaterlea25]

HI JFerg,
I would need some more information, pictures or someting??
BSA's used theri own oil pumps mounted on or in the timing case, these fed up to a tank mounted sight glass
sometimes the adjuster is on the pump and others on the sight glass unit
I have a 24 Flat tank 350 ohv, also access to other 20's beezas for reference
Best and Lloyd, made several types of pumps, the one with the adjuster dial on top normally has an indicator button
to observe flow, These "pumps" were made with a variety of size internal  plungers depending on application

Another consideration is that in some cases crankcase pressure?vacuum will suck oil through thes primitive metering devices leading to over oiling
Also if a "modern" piston with  oil control ring has been fitted to the engine the oil supply required is much less
Conversely if the piston /bore is worn crankcase pressure will upset the system??

Lastly what oil are you using? multigrades flow way to easily and consumption will be very high,
Straight 40 or 50 is best for total loss applications

HTH
John O R

[JFerg]

Thanks, John.

Further investigations make me think that although the pump may have come from a BSA, it is in fact a B&L with the adjuster dial on the end of the regulator needle.  This needle has a blunt, squared, end, and does not actually have any regulating effect at all.  Makes me think that it should have a longer taper.

I'm running modern two stroke oil in it, and despite the huge consumption of the stuff, the exhaust shows only very slight smoke.  I will change to a straight 50; it's a good point that the oil is always cold, so a heavier oil would reduce consumption.

The final, compounding, detail is that the engine is a 500cc Barr and Stroud sleeve valve.  I'd expect oil consumption to be higher than for a poppet valve engine, but it shouldn't be that much higher, and certainly shouldn't belch liquid oil out the exhaust.  The only other sleeve valve engines about are Knight double sleeves in cars.  These are not total loss of course, but are a more complex lubrication challenge, and their exhausts run dry.

Wear is almost non-existent in sleeve valves due to the huge wear surfaces, and the valve action which spreads the lubricant very effectively.  RAF experience with Bristols (which use the same single sleeve design) gave something like 10,000 hours between overhaul, versus 1500 hours for poppet valved engines.  I know the full history of my bike, and am confident that excess wear is not an issue.

Thanks for your help.

JFerg

[rogerwilko]

Not having any experience with these devices, it does seem strange that it wouldn;t have a tapered needle for metering?

[R]

There is a pic of that particular (Ever Onward ?) B&S sleeve valve engine in action in a magazine, with a vast cloud of smoke behind it.

So changing to 50 weight until you solve the over-oiling may not be such a good idea ?

[chaterlea25]

Hi Again,
Two stroke oil is for two stroke engines!!!
The Barr and Struod is 4 stroke sleeve valve
The oil from the oilpump is intended for the crankcase/ crankshaft and some will sneak up the sleeves and bore to be burnt off
Modern two stroke oil will give sufficient lube to the engine at less than 1%,
If I was worried about the cyliinder lube I would add a dash of 2 stroke to the petrol
The engine requires good thick oil for the bottom end,
I Know of a couple of sleeve valve veteran cars, Minerva and Daimler owned by the same family and have done a few jobs on those cars, never heard of putting 2 stroke in one though??

If the Adjuster is on the end of the oilpump it sounds like a pilgrim pump, they have a sight glass on top???
There is someone who still recons these, try OBM, those Pilgrim pumps were copied by BSA at one time???
These pumps were/ are still used on speedway JAP and Jawa engines
Show us a photo of the pump, with the needle valve removed?
I have a pilgrim pump in parts and can compare the needle.

HTH
John O R

[R]

I've heard of a lot of folks who run 2 stroke oil in their old drip feed machines.

Not sure what I think of this practice, not having tried it, but their rational is that modern synthetic 2 stroke oil in particular has almost eliminated seizures in modern machinery - and it lubricates well in small quantities, and its smokeless (or almost so) so its a lot less offensive to those following, and the natives.  It also keeps engines remarkably clean inside, and being ashless never needs decoking.

Be interesting to see a motor with a lot of miles on board, to see how the cams and big end rollers survive.... ??

What do other folks use in their drip feed machines ?
The really old handbooks call for "water-cooled oil", which is an odd name for something that has nothing to do with water ?

[33d6]

Well I have run two-stroke oil in my 1926 Matchless for a long time and it still has the original 1926 big end. Castrol advised the base oilstock used in their two stroke range is SAE 50 which is about what grade I would use anyway. To my mind the various additives for two stroke use also suit a total loss application although I still get the occasional issue with the exhaust valve stem clagging up.
I also have the odd spare engine I've found over the years and can cheerfully say the cam and follower wear in them is no different from that in my original engine running on two stroke oil.
Its like a lot of things, initially you think "thats not right", but on reflection there is a solid base of logic and practicality there and it ain't so silly.
Finally, to really surprise the purist, I will also quite happily use an oil intended for diesel engines. Diesel engines are notoriously dirty so oils intended for them contain highly detergent additives to keep engine internals clean. If caught at a country garage with no two stroke oil I will happily use something intended for Farmer Jones tractor.
Remember we are talking 1920's technology here where any current engine oil is far superior to anything available then.
Cheers,
 

[speedo]

To answer your question the needle valve should look like a needle ....that is it tapers down to a sharp point . If it has been screwed down too tightly it will have a ridge on the taper ,this will prevent your drip being finely adjusted.

[JFerg]

The bike is in fact "Ever Onward", a fabulous machine if ever there was one.

The lubrication system is typical mid-twenties, automatic with a hand pump for use on long hills.

Oil feeds by gravity from the oil tank to the Best and LLoyd pump mounted on the timing case.  This pumps oil up, via the ineffectual needle valve regulator, to the sight glass, where the flow appears as splutters through the beak.  From there it is gravity fed into the crankcase.  Integral with the regulator is the hand pump.  This is pressed down to prime, pumping by spring action when the toggle catch is released.  Although reputed to have come off a BSA, I am now fairly confident that it is a B&L item.  It's awfully similar to the one shown in Radco's book.  Radco further shows the truncated needle, so I am thinking that's not the culprit either.

I accept the two stroke oil argument, but my problem is that the stuff runs everywhere.  I don't burn that much of it, but leave a trail...

Barr and Stroud recommended "Shell TT", which is anyone's guess for SAE rating, but as a 1920's engine oil it would have been far heavier cold (which is how Ever Onward drinks it) than any modern 50 weight.

A fellow sleeve valve zealot and multiple Minerva/Knight owner runs 50wt in his cars.  They blow no smoke and the exhausts are dry, but they are wet sump engines, not total loss.

I **think** I have attached some pictures, but can't be too sure....

JFerg

[cardan]

I agree about two stroke oil in vintage-veteran bikes: I did it for years with no ill effect, but the the stuff I was using was so "slippery" that it leaked out everywhere, particularly around the hand pump and Best and Lloyd dripper. It seemed to help to reduce carbon build up on top of the piston and in the cylinder, but I have gone back to using straight 50.

The Ever Onward is a bike built up by an enthusiast in Melbourne (Australia) in the 1960s (or there-abouts) around a B&S motor. Parts used are mostly Norton and Douglas. When it moved to a new owner around 1980 it was tidied up a bit, including fabrication of a new primary cover.

Cheers, Leon

[chaterlea25]

HI JFerg,
Quote : "but they are wet sump engines, not total loss".
In this case there is little or no difference!!!
The motorcycle crankcase (sump) is much smaller and just topped up by the pump drip regulator!!!!
I do not know any history of your bike "but",
I have never seen a restrictor/ needle valve used with a B&L,  They positively pump the oil and normally raise an indicator button to indicate flow. The BSA's that have this type of flow adjuster just have a scroll type "pump" which gets the oil up to the flow reg/indicator
THe oil should not spurt into the sight glass merely drip, say 8 drips per minute at tickover
The B&L pumps came with different diamater pistons for different applications, maybe yours has one fitted that is too big for the engine???
Firstly I would change to 50wt oil, and see how it behaves on that?

I can check the B& L pump plunger diamaters tomorrow

HTH
John O R

[chaterlea25]

Hi Again JFerg
I have compared the 2 B&L pumps I have,
the smaller one is from a 350 ohv Blackburne, I dont know the application of the one with the bigger piston
The stroke on both is the same, 5.3mm
The small piston measures 9/32 = 7.1 mm
The larger measures 3/8 = 9.5mm
A calculation reveals max displacement on the small one =0.2098cc and the large one 0.3757 cc
I know this is the maximum theoritical capacity of each but the larger one will always deliver almost twice the smaller
for the same setting
It would be worth checking out the size of the piston on your engine for comparison?

Just noticed now how the B&L mechanism is very similar to the single sleeve valve engine

Cheers
John O R

[JFerg]

John,

Apparently there are two types of B&L pump; the big one and the little one.  Sounds like you have one of each.  I had the impression that the body castings were different, but it makes sense and would save a fortune in creating a "smaller" pump by simply reducing the bore. 

Early B&L were all the "large" type, notorious over-oilers, and the problem was reduced with the later "small" pump.  I will start to pull some apart and measure.

Thanks for the good guidance.

JFerg

[chaterlea25]

Hi JFerg,
Ok, There are a lot more than 2 types, and I know about the "little one"
I bought a BIG Blackburne/Dennis lawnmower  engine just because it had a perfect small bodied pump 
The pumps I have dismantled are identical looking to the one on your engine,
I will photograph them later and post the pics
Theres also a later type which is very big in comparison to these, it has a sight glass built in
Later
John O R