ID this bike from 1910's or 1920's?

[cmd21]

Old picture of my great grandfather.  Picture was either taken in NYC or Italy.

[R]

Great pic.
Bike is an Indian. It has the sprung front forks,  and is a v-twin with inlet-over-exhaust valves, it still has pedals and rather plain mudguards so its circa 1910 to 1913 or so. Could just be an export model, which had a slightly different arrangement of back brakes ?

So someone who knows their Indians should be able to pick the exact years and model. Someone who knows their cars could probably pick the year and model of the car in the background, and say if its Italian or USA - the car is about the same era. Its interesting that "Indian' is not visible on the tank, the logo was usually quite prominent.

P.S. In 1913 and 1914 , Indian was manufacturing in excess of 30,000 bikes per year, so was by far the worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer (or Motocycle, as Indian called them). And did a huge volume of export business.

Opethiselps.

[cmd21]

Nice eye, thanks.  Here is a picture of the other side. 

[R]

Interestingly enough, this is not the same bike.
This one is a Harley Davidson - note the different shape/design of front forks, and different more squarer shape of tank. It is a Model J, teens I think without looking closely. An update on the slightly older Indian, perhaps ?  Although not by much ?

[cardan]

The Harley is an early one - likely a single speeder from 1912 or 13. The Indian spring frame appeared in 1913, so the Indian is much the same period as the Harley. Also a single speeder it dates from 1913-15.

Leon

[R]

Perhaps the Indian was an update to the HD then - makes more sense !

Yesterdays are calling this a 1912 ?
http://www.yesterdays.nl/product_thumb.php?img=images/Indian-1912-Mod-7-BH-1.jpg

[cardan]

Yesterdays' blurb says in part: "Late 1912 the Big Twin was updated with Indian's innovative, leaf-sprung, swinging-arm frame". This opens the door for the "but my bike left the factory in late 1912" - "yes, but it's still a 1913 model" discussion. Best left to experts! I have a very nice repro 1912 Indian catalogue, and no rear springs in there. Still, my language above is not exact. I probably should have written: "The Indian spring frame appeared on the 1913 models", some of which were no-doubt produced in late 1912.
Interesting that the Indian twin would have been relatively common around 1913, but the early Harley twins, with pedals and no footboards, were produced in much smaller numbers. Its a pity the two photos are no clearer so we could have a closer look.
Leon