After market oil filter.

[twolitre]

A previous owner of my 1954 Triumph 5T Speed Twin had an oil filter added.
The filter accepts oil discharged from the pressure relief valve and returns it the timing gear case.
The filter fitted is a Coopers Fiamm Z107. which I believe is a FULL FLOW filter fitted to some Renaults.
The system, as fitted, is a by pass situation. In which a BY PASS filter with less flow restriction would normally be used.
My concern is that a FULL FLOW filter will reduce the oil flow to the timing gears detrimentally.
Has anyone who has experience of fitting after market filters any comments on whether my concern is justified?
Jim.

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

As far as I understand all filters are full-flow except when they block, more expensive filters have a by-pass valve built into them that responds to through-put pressure, when flow becomes restricted the bypass valve opens and unfiltered oil then flows round the engine, cheap filters do not have this option, built into them, so with restricted oil flow the engine can seize!

Presumably the pressure valve in the engine is just acting as a feed to the filter, and the filter just returns filtered oil to the timing gear side, oil filtration on British machines was poor & many people have upgraded to an additional separate filtration unit.

Check the flow through the filter,  if you can and check the timing side for poor lubrication score marks on metal parts, if everything looks ok then i would presume just to change the unit @ anything from 4,000-6,000 miles using  a good quality oil.



Cheers


JBW

[chaterlea25]

Hi Jim,
Do you have photos of the set up?
It seems somewhat unlikely that the po would go to all that work just to filter the bypass oil??
I have seen Triumphs converted to full flow where the oil is fed in to the crank at the prv fitting which lines up with the crank end?

Regards
John

[twolitre]

Hi Jim,
Do you have photos of the set up?
It seems somewhat unlikely that the po would go to all that work just to filter the bypass oil??
I have seen Triumphs converted to full flow where the oil is fed in to the crank at the prv fitting which lines up with the crank end?

Regards
John

Sorry, no photo's without dismantling. And then I do not think they would be very informative.

I am really a car man with qualifications to prove it.
Years ago, many four wheel vehicles were fitted with a filter usually connected between the main oil gallery and rocker shaft or tappet gallery if side valve. Flow was restricted by an orifice so as not to flood the rockers. Quite often an after market fitment, but still used on the early Triumph Herald engines.
The oil directly to the engine bearings etc. was not filtered. Only the BY PASS oil. The system was known as a BY PASS lubrication system as against the now universal FULL FLOW system, which uses a by-pass VALVE to protect the engine from oil starvation if the FULL FLOW filter fails.
A by pass system will filter all the oil eventually and a much finer filter may be used, as the full flow filter must typically pass upwards of 5 gallons of oil /minute, depending on engine size and filtersize would be an issue for a fine filter to pass the oil quantity require.
There seems to be little evidence that either system is really superior.

Thinking about my conundrum again I probably do need a full flow (type) filter to restrict flow as little as possible as the filtered oil take off is oil ejected from the pressure relief valve rather than from an orifice on the bearing supply side. That would ensure that the maximum flow of "relief" oil was fed to the timing case?
 Jim.

[Rex]

Early 1950s Morris Minors etc had the bypass set-up too, but can you even get that type of filter any more?

I've seen those kits where the engine is fed clean oil, and although it's obviously a better system theoretically, is it superior to the more common 2CV filter in the return line?
Personally I just change the oil every year regardless...

[twolitre]

Early 1950s Morris Minors etc had the bypass set-up too, but can you even get that type of filter any more?

I've seen those kits where the engine is fed clean oil, and although it's obviously a better system theoretically, is it superior to the more common 2CV filter in the return line?
Personally I just change the oil every year regardless...

Hi Rex, It did occur to me that a filter might be best (and easier) fitted into the scavenge pipe. Also whether it is commonly done? Of course a by-pass valve would be sensible.
Jim.

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Hi,
I have never had a vehicle with a by-pass filtration system, so I didn't realise the whole content of your post. Guess I'm probably too young to have experience the by-pass system system as used on road vehicles.
I do however, know that the  500cc Triumph Grand Prix had a  external oil filter built in as standard, situated in front of the gearbox, , with regards to take off point  presumably, it would have be plumbed on the return side before the oil tank.
Some specialist Clubs have had greater capacity oil tanks designed & fabricated to fit, to give the old motors more of a chance. You can get thermostatically controlled oil-coolers too.

A Guy running a Speed Twin in India  has posted  on a site... discussing running old bikes in hot climates,.......He writes..."The flow is from the pump to the cooler to the filter to the tank return point, which feeds the rockers. Having the filter at the coolest point of the oil flow means that more debris should settle out... the oil pressure gauge is a cheap after-market car one. I bought it because it harmonised with the speedo colour scheme. It is attached to the standard test point at the lower front of the timing case. It reads 60lbs a few seconds after startup, then when the bike is at operating temperature and cruising it reads about 1lb per mph, so 60lb on the highway, 40lb around town. If it gets near or below 40lb on the highway I know I'm in trouble and near cooking the motor."
With regards to filtration:
Spring '85 issue of Classic Mechanics:
Royce Creasey wrote an article on filtration for motorcycles...The particles causing the most damage are those in the 15-30 micron (0.004in.-0.011in.) range. Wire mesh filters are unlikely to catch these sizes. They are especially poor at catching the long, thin slivers due to their very small cross-sectional area, which happen to be just the thing to bugger gear type oil pumps and jam non-return valves........with regards to Automotive filters he states......  This type of paper filter will stop all particles down to 12 microns, and a diminishing proportion down to 5 microns. They are very good at catching the long thin ones mentioned above, that can do most damage.

In the article it had a photo of a gear shaft lifted from the Ducati and a cam spindle from Royce's Velo. The Ducati bit has covered a claimed 8600 miles, the oil having been 'filtered' through Ducati's  then, joke filtration set up. The Velo spindle has run 60,000 miles on his bike, having been fitted as used off another. The Velo. spindle was worn out, but the surface was visibly better then the Ducati item, i.e. properly filtered oil = much lower wear rates, as we would expect.

As for Brand makes, I remember the Purolator brand, had an excellent name as a good upmarket filter.

Citroen 2CV, Peugeot and Talbot filters can be adapted for Norton's not sure about Triumphs, but I suspect they are adaptable.

There's also a lot of talk on the net about the necessity of a good modern filtration system when taking advantage of modern Synthetic oils. Through the changing ingredients in modern oils they behave differently to older purely Mineral-based oils, because modern oils in particular Synthetics keep particles in suspension, through using higher detergent levels; they therefore,( if a good filtration system is not in place), cause the suspended particles to just keep going through your engines components,  leading to potentially more engine wear taking place!

However, some people swear by the advantages of using Synthetic oils on old air-cooled motors as the Synth's have a lower potential to disintegrate at high temperatures, but they have to be used as stated with a modern filtration system. If you can stomach a twitching needle, I think an oil pressure gauge is a good safety device for covering most situations when on the road, particularly when running engines of the kind of   almost 70 year old vintage we are talking about.

Somewhere I have what was my Uncles 1940s Pitman's Book of Triumph, with all the technical  diagrams in it,  model by model, but at the moment I can't find it!

Cheers

JBW.

[L.A.B.]

I am really a car man with qualifications to prove it.
Years ago, many four wheel vehicles were fitted with a filter usually connected between the main oil gallery and rocker shaft or tappet gallery if side valve. Flow was restricted by an orifice so as not to flood the rockers. Quite often an after market fitment, but still used on the early Triumph Herald engines.
The oil directly to the engine bearings etc. was not filtered. Only the BY PASS oil. The system was known as a BY PASS lubrication system as against the now universal FULL FLOW system, which uses a by-pass VALVE to protect the engine from oil starvation if the FULL FLOW filter fails.
A by pass system will filter all the oil eventually and a much finer filter may be used, as the full flow filter must typically pass upwards of 5 gallons of oil /minute, depending on engine size and filtersize would be an issue for a fine filter to pass the oil quantity require.
There seems to be little evidence that either system is really superior.

Thinking about my conundrum again I probably do need a full flow (type) filter to restrict flow as little as possible as the filtered oil take off is oil ejected from the pressure relief valve rather than from an orifice on the bearing supply side. That would ensure that the maximum flow of "relief" oil was fed to the timing case?

I admit I don't think I've ever heard of bypass filters before so I must be younger than I thought. I can't see they would be much use on a British bike engine of that period as the lubrication systems usually have very little over-capacity once the oil is at working temperature, once the oil has warmed up and thinned out then the OPRV may not even open.

As others have said, there are a number of return line filter kits based on the spin-on 2CV unit (as used on the Norton Commando) or there's Bob Light/MAP Cycle filter kit which uses a filter from a BSA/Triumph triple.

Alternatively, there's the Kirby Rowbotham filter kit which filters the feed oil after it has passed through the pump.

  http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyoil.htm

  http://www.tri-corengland.com/acatalog/Oil-Filter-Kit-pre-OIF-RS009.html

  http://www.kirbyrowbotham.com/oilfilters.php     

[twolitre]

Thanks L.A.B.,
There is much food for thought in those links. Not least the possible "pulse" effect in the scavenge line.
The third option seems to be a close description of that fitted to my 5T, though some of the illustrations and fitting instructions lead me to think it may be from an alternative supplier.
I think I will leave well alone now.
Thanks again, Jim.

[L.A.B.]

There is much food for thought in those links. Not least the possible "pulse" effect in the scavenge line.

There must be hundreds of Triumphs out there fitted with return filters. These things have been in use now for many years and I've yet to hear of any breaking up! 

[twolitre]

Point taken L.A.B. Thanks,
Jim.