Author Topic: barr and stroud cotton project  (Read 47475 times)

Offline cardan

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2014, 10:54:10 PM »

Great story. We sometimes forget that real people had to make the stuff we play with. I hope the attached photo will help you keep in mind this highlight of your early years! All Vibrac parts on the racy Rudges are stamped VIB.

Leon

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2014, 12:01:43 AM »
So, anyone know whats in this Vibrac steel ??

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9806E5DC1E3CE533A2575AC1A9659C946395D6CF

Which seems to have slipped into obscurity....

Offline 33d6

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2014, 01:23:41 AM »
"Vibrac" was a trade name for a high tensile nickel chrome steel that gave no hint of the formulation or what it was. This was common steel makers practice of the day and was a major handicap to standardising production across independent factories when the UK geared up for mass wartime production in WWII. So much so that a wartime emergency committee was formed to eliminate confusion over these trade names by introducing the well known EN (Emergency Numbers) set of numbers to standardise steel types so everyone knew what everyone else was talking about. We still refer to EN numbers on occasion even though they've been obsolete for years and there is now a much more sophisticated (complicated/confusing) descriptive system which users tend to shorten for convenience.

The nearest modern designation would probably be something like '4140' (machine shop short version of the full fancy number) and oddly enough I can turn that on my Taiwanese cheap'n'cheerful lathe to make the odd cup & cone wheel bearing. That old foreman must have drilled something in to me or perhaps it's just years and years of practice.
Cheers,
 

Offline cardan

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2014, 03:35:56 AM »

I use 4140 for fork spindles and axles - machines quite nicely on my rather worn-out Hercus. Interesting that Vibrac appeared c1922, presumably as part of the revolution in steels after 1900 and through WW1. I doubt that the development of the sleeve valve aero engine, and the B&S, would have been possible without the developments in metallurgy. Are the B&S sleeves steel or iron?

Leon

Offline 33d6

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 11:50:54 PM »
Yes, I think the metallurgists have slowly tweaked the formulation of Vibrac/4140 over the years and improved it vastly. Plus of course the steel makers quality control to achieve a more consistent product has equally improved. The major tricky bit for me with turning up wheel bearings in 4140 is preventing the form tool I use from chattering. I rough them out with no drama but do the final shaping with a form tool which has a tendency to chatter on the final cut unless I get the feed and speed just so. Most annoying. I'm sure a modern machine shop wouldn't have these issues but there's a slight problem of money and having to use the tools at hand.
As for your question on B&S sleeve material I think it is iron but JFerg can give an accurate answer plus even tell you the sleeve wall thickness. No doubt any sleeve valve engine made today would have a thinner and lighter sleeve plus a much lighter aluminium piston replacing the original cast iron item and even have oil control scraper rings fitted. When you see Ever Onward performing on the road you tend to forget just how old it is and how incredibly original the B&S engine is. We have an annual weekend away with the boys ride and cover about 500 miles to our destination and return.  It's hard to believe the star performer runs an engine still using all the internal components it left the factory with in the early 20's.

Offline JFerg

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2014, 02:25:51 AM »
Barr and Stroud's sleeves are described as being of "special close-grained iron".
The Bristol sleeve that I have is also of iron.
However, Arrol-Aster sleeves are steel, allowing them to be thinner and much lighter.

JFerg

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2014, 08:46:29 AM »
To lump all sleeve valve engines together and apply conclusions drawn to all is just as wrong as doing the same with poppet valved engines.
<big snip>

Single sleeve valve engines hit their peak in WW2 aero engines.  Bristol Centaurus, Napier Lion, and I forget what the "H" pattern RR was called.  All rendered obsolete by jet turbines, but still the most powerful spark ignition engines ever built.

Where the RAF overhaul period for a poppet valved aero engine was 500 hours, for a ssv engine it was 1500 hours.
<snip>

That is not at all the whole story though...

When the Merlin initially came out, it had an expected combat life of just 20 hours.
Which was continually reworked and revised thoughout the war,
the horsepower likewise being considerably developed. Considerably.

The Napier family of engines also had considerable development - and initially were quite unreliable.
Didn't the story go that Napiers got acess to Bristols' development in sleeve material and technology,
with different management, which eventually  improved it out of sight.
The early versions were tried with aircooling, but w/c was required to be reliable.
It was the later H16 Napier Sabre engine that was said to be the most powerful piston engine about,
although at 5500 hp it was only just ahead of the later versions of the Merlin.

Perhaps worth repeating here too a story of the Napier sleeve valve engine in the Hawker Typhoon.
There were apparently known for sometimes being somewhat difficult to start, and catching fire in the process.
So much so that one early squadron of Typhoons had handwritten written near the engine
"If this catches fire during starting, don't just run around waving your arms,
do something about putting the bloody thing out."
A fearsome weapon when they were on song though apparently.
Capable even of catching doodlebugs.

Off track slightly though.
And the B&S was somewhat before this, with a much more modest output and capacity..

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:49:15 AM by R »

Offline cardan

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 01:23:17 PM »

Photo of the 1932 Works Rudge mentioned above.

Leon

Offline murdo

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2014, 10:06:13 AM »
Nice.  ;)

Offline cardan

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2014, 11:21:02 PM »

Came across this photo of a very nice Barr and Stroud engined Beardmore Precision:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/favorites/with/4674187737/lightbox/

You could win some "technical interest" pots with this one!

Leon

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2014, 02:17:42 PM »
Hmm - nice, but I'd prefer one (or all) of these.


Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2014, 10:43:40 PM »
Have many of those vtwin B&S engines survived, in any marque.
They were not big sellers back then ?

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2014, 09:04:12 AM »
The definitive answer to that question will have to come from JFerg - but the machine you see in the above attachment is one of two P.V. made with the WA9 motor.

I think both are pictured on this thread - the one in the image on page 1 has a different carburettor and other minor detail variations.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:09:13 AM by P.V. Motorcycles »

Offline JFerg

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2014, 11:29:52 PM »
The only complete B&S V twin engined "survivor" that I can uncover is Sammy Miller's Grindlay Peerless.  This was Ted Beckham's bike, and if you see a mention of a B&S V twin Grindlay in any VMCC material, it's this bike.  I know of two other engines.  One sold at Bonham's Stafford auction a few years ago.  B&S only built about 80 twins.

JFerg

Offline murdo

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2014, 10:40:49 PM »
Reading an article in the Australian magazine 'Old Bike' issue number 46 about the rider Jimmy Pringle.
He had gone to England in 1931 to work at the Rudge factory in the competitions department. He came home in time for the first motorcycle races at Phillip Island at the end of 1931, bringing with him a Rudge 499cc ridden by Graham Walker to victories at the Dutch, German and IoM TT races.
In August 1932 he again sailed to England and won his first start at the Brooklands Circuit riding a Grindlay-Peerless. He took home a 'Gold Star after lapping the circuit at 100.61 mph.

Is this the Grindlay-Peerless that is in the Sammy Miller museum?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:45:25 AM by murdo »