Help wanted please. Think it's an Excelsior, but not sure which one.

[Cavesurfer]

Hi. I've just joined the group so here's my first post. I'm pretty sure the bike is an Excelsior from period 1949 to perhaps 1953, but I can't find anything that looks quite right. The frame number is C1/326.

If it helps here are some obvious clues...the upper triple clamp has the type of fitting for two separate handlebars (as on a Talisman) rather than the more conventional four bolt clamps. The frame tube below the tank and vertical tube behind the engine are two separate tubes joined by a cast lug with fittings for the tank and seat (as on a Talisman) rather than the single bent tube as seen on say, the Roadmaster. The forks are of a similar type to those on a later model Consort, I.e. With short tapered section at top of fork, rather than the longer taper as on the Roadmaster or Talisman.

The engine is a Villiers single, probably 197cc, but I haven't measured it yet.

Any comments and thoughts will be gratefully received.
Thanks in advance
Paul

[33d6]

I think you may have the remains of a 1953 Excelsior Courier. This used Excelsior's own 150cc engine but good luck finding one of them or spares. This is probably why you have a 197 engine in the pile. Much easier to sort out.

Can't tell you much more. I'd suggest you have a surf through the VMCC Library at www.vmcc.net

Cheers,

[Cavesurfer]

Thanks very much. I thought the frame number C1 referred to the Courier as well...I know there was a C2 model Courier. However, I could not find any references to a C1 with a general search on the Internet. By inference the Excelsior engine is harder to maintain and find spares for? Thanks for the link.
Regards

[33d6]

The Excelsior engine is no harder to work on than any other small two-stroke of it's time. It's the absence of Excelsior bits that's the problem. It uses Wipac electrics and an Amal carb so not too bad there, and Alpha will make you a big end but good luck for anything else. When did you last see any Excelsior engine bits at a swap meet? Or anywhere else?
Then after all the effort and hunting stuff down, the engine has nothing to offer that can't be got far more easily from Villiers or Bantam or Royal Enfield. A Villiers powered Excelsior is a snack compared to sorting out the equivalent bike with Excelsiors own engine.
Sorry to be such a party pooper.
Cheers,

[Cavesurfer]

Hmm. I take your point. Looks like I may be aiming for a hybrid with my restoration then as trying to find the correct engine may be a non-starter within my budget and time constraints. The engine I have is in excellent condition after a partial rebuild, apart from a needing a rebore and some new ignition parts (I know these are readily available).
I looked on the vmcc website that you gave me but, unless I was looking in the wrong place, there did not appear to be any reference section for Excelsior. If I could just find something that confirmed the model number from the frame number then it would be easier to move forwards.
Thanks for your input anyway. All of my other bikes are a lot more recent so parts and documents much easier to come by.
Regards

[Cavesurfer]

A bit more new on the engine today, photos attached. The engine numbers are as follows; 363A (which I think makes it a Villiers 6E of 197cc capacity from period '51 to '53ish) and 23946E. Now there is of course the posibility that this isn't the correct engine for the bike, but if the frame is from a Excelsior Consort, then 197cc 6E engine is I think one of the options the Consort came with so there is a potential match of sorts. More importantly, does anyone have any info on which manufacturer/model the 363A refers to?
There is Dutch (?) website (www.hulsmannmotor.nl) that lists this engine number for the Ambassador Popular/Embassy models from '53 to '55 but as 33d6 has posted elsewhere this entry was copied from another reference book and is know to be incorrect.
So, anyone know which make/model 363A was for?
Many thanks

[33d6]

Hi cave surfer,
The Hulsmann list was copied from Roy Bacons, "Villiers postwar Singles & Twins". Roy emphasised his list was incomplete and it isn't. His list is basically correct--as far as it goes, but it doesn't list all postwar numbers. It's been a fun game for years making my own list of Nos Not In Bacon plus tracking down what numbers were shared by small time manufacturers. (yes, I know I'm a sad case). Anyway, Hulsmanns copy of Bacon is correct with 363A. It identifies an engine originally built for Ambassador.
Cheers,

[Cavesurfer]

Hmmm...so it looks like I have an Ambassador engine with an Excelsior frame! Plot is thickening minute by minute. It's not in the photos but I also have an Ambassador tank. This is beginning to look like a project that someone started and possibly mistook the frame for an Ambassador.

I will persevere and see what I can establish from the frame with the VMCC.

Thanks again for you help.
Regards

[R]

The difference between a Villiers with Ambassador numbers and Excelsior numbers is only in the numbers, so its not the end of the world !  It was probably what was to hand. Tank could be a bit trickier.

Build it, ride it and enjoy...

[Cavesurfer]

Yes, indeed...build ride and enjoy is definitely where it's at. However...after a bit more trawling last night I think we now have an answer....I think what I have is an Excelsior Condex C1 from 1956. No pictures of a real one anywhere that I've thought of looking but there are a number of pieces of publicity blurb out there that refer to this being in the model range in 1956. Forks, head stock, frame, rear plunger suspension, tool box and everything look identical to what I have in my pile of bits...even the colour is correct. The engine appears to be a 150cc Villiers, not one of Excelsior's own.

Attached is a shot of one of the documents I found...the model I think I have is the bike on the top left. As already pointed out though the engine I have is a 197cc. Will have to decide whether to go with what I have or go phaff around trying to locate the correct engine.

There was an earlier model Condex, the D12, which had a smaller engine (122cc I think) a hard rear end and I think girder front forks, painted black. There appear to be a few D12 models in circulation still, but few similarities to what I have if any.

So, if anyone has a Condex C1 from 1956, can I have some pictures please?

Thanks for all supportive and informative replies.
Regards

[33d6]

Don't worry about the engine differences. Reputedly all post-war Villiers engines share the same mounting points so are interchangeable. I've never tried every possible combination but to date have found that to be true with the combinations I have tried. Of course the engines might be interchangeable but the exhaust systems aren't, neither are the fuel lines and often the rear sprocket is a different size also but none of those are an issue to you are they. You will find the 197cc engine is much better than the 150 and if you can get a 4-speed box it is even better.

The joy of a bike like yours is that you can keep tweaking it with various Villiers bits and pieces at no great cost and no one will ever notice or care. Try fiddling with a Triumph or Norton and the rivet counters come out of the woodwork. No one ever does that for Villiers powered stuff. My own '51 James has had several rebirths starting out as a rigid frame standard 125 Cadet 11-12 years ago and is now a 197 Captain de Luxe with plunger rear suspension. I'm currently contemplating a 12v conversion and LED lights although this does mean fitting a decent battery. The only thing people ever notice is that the tail light is off a Honda postie bike.

Cheers,

[Cavesurfer]

That's a very refreshing attitude to hear. Never been a rivet counter myself so am totally with you on the engine issue. I just want make this pile of rusting parts back into a nice bike again and enjoy it.

I am reminded of an incident ai witnessed probably 35 years ago...my Dad had a vintage car, a 1935 Riley Kestrel 15/6, and we used to go to occasional Riley club days. On one occasion we went to a driving test day at Brooklands and lots of other club members turned up with their beautiful pieces of machinery to have some fun. Anyway, about half way through the day some lads from South London rolled up in a Riley RM, a big, luxurious post war saloon. They had stripped out the Riley running gear, fitted a big Ford V8 and automatic gearbox, custom suspension front and rear and painted flames all down the side of the front wings and bonnet. Of course all the Riley club members were totally horrified and refused to talk to the lads who owned it, completely ignoring the fact that it was a completely beautiful piece of work and probably the best presented car there that day. Also overlooked the fact that it was used every day!

Thanks for your help.
Regards

[murdo]

Don't worry about rivet counters. It is your bike, so build it how you want and get out and enjoy it. 

[darloman]

have a look at ebay number 281833699169

[Cavesurfer]

The bike on eBay looks like it has the correct type of engine, but it's very different in other respects, I.e. Rear swing arm suspension, different forks etc. and so on. Thanks for looking though.

The search begins for missing parts now. I need 2 wheels, ideally 5" hubs or larger, 2.5" x19". Hubs on their own would be fine as I'd probably for new rims anyway. Also need a tank, speedo and headlamp lens and surround, and rear lamp. Time to visit eBay, gumtree and autojumbles...