Any help with ID of this 1900's frame ?

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi, got this frame yesterday. Last owner remembers it being in family from at least 50's and he is now mid 80's. Around 20 years ago he looked through library books and thinks he id it as a Werner ? I must admit being such a old bike I had never come across it. Anyway he never had benefit of Internet so just went with that. I looked up a Werner but I am not 100% it is. It looks to have a few slight differences to me. I did find a few other very early bikes it could be like maybe a Peugeot? . Any ideas ? The main cross bar is 1.25" tube and it is quite long at 27" between fittings. It has a 8" space down to lower cross bar and I would think the max dimension of wheel and tyre would be around 27.5". Has belt drive built in kinks in rear left side. Has a number stamped a bit faint in saddle post fitting that looks like 15491. It has been painted with red led but was black under, maybe someone could possibly remove with care if wanted it original. Still looks and feels in very good order for age.

[cardan]

Oh very nice. Probably around 1904-1906, but not Werner, Peugeot, or indeed not one of the more common machines. The key identifying feature will be the one-piece lug that forms the rear engine mount and the pedal bracket. It doesn't ring any bells at the moment, but an excellent challenge!

Cheers

Leon

[john.k]

Up to about 30 years ago guys used to bring trailer loads of belt drive frames to swapmeets.Never any forks or engines tho.

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi Leon and others, I will have a real close check over of the lower main lug to see if i can find any marking maybe filled with paint. It does to me look a quite long frame and as you said I think it looks lovely. So much so that I have it in my living room at home. Much better to look at than the wifes china pots
It is though probably not for me as a bit to old, I like post 30's to 60's so will probably move it on though would love to know what it is first. You managed to get to the bottom of the odd set of Newmount / Zundapp forks I have so hopefully you or one of the others can crack this case as well
          Cheers, Jon   

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi, I have been over the frame with a magnifying glass and can find no other numbers on any part. The only slight clue is that it has the nicest and most unusual grease nipple I have seen. It is nickle plated and has a cover that folds out the way, its held in place with a pin. Have looked at hundreds of grease nipples on Google but have not found one like this. What away to spend a early evening

 

[Jonny The Goat]

Just a thought. As to me it looks quite long could it of fitted a small V twin ? Looking at some photos of a Sarolea that looks close though never seen one in the flesh and can't see lower fram engine mount lugs.
 Jon.

[cardan]

Yes it could be a small v-twin, or equally a single. I haven't looked at Sarolea, but I was thinking of Fafnir. Can you measure the width of the lugs that take the engine plates? Fafnir motors used very narrow lugs.

Against a continental id is that some of the frame lugs are quite heavy, particularly the one at the lower end of the steering head. European stuff was typically quite elegant. Brown Bros was a good thought, but I can't see the funny bottom bracket lug anywhere in the Brown range.

Cheers

Leon

[Jonny The Goat]

Hi Leon, The engine lugs are a bit over 1.5" across and probably closer to 40mm incase having a metric size for continental bikes. The space between the front engine lug and the closest rear part of the engine fitting lug is 160. The steering lug parts are 40mm OD on fork bearing parts. The front engine lug has a small fin on the front facing side that is a neat touch, unsure if it really adds to aerodynamics but looks nice
           Cheers, Jon   

[cardan]

Metric measurements make sense, because the frame is French, from a 1904-5 Alcyon. This model was usually seen with a Buchet motor - it appears there was a lightweight version using a Swiss Zedel motor, but this used a slightly different central lug.

The black-and-white illustration shows the Alcyon-Buchet. I had trouble finding drawings or photos that showed the frame details to compare with the surviving frame, but I did find some photos of a "restored" Alcyon "racer", fitted with an OHV Buchet motor. I strongly suspect this machine is not what it pretends to be, and that the frame is the standard Alcyon frame with the lower tank rail removed to make room for the tall OHV engine. I could be wrong; perhaps it is real. Anyway, if you study the photos I think you'll find - lower tank rail detail apart - that the frame is the same as the one under discussion here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/amelien/599426892
https://www.flickr.com/photos/amelien/599117041

Cheers

Leon

[Jonny The Goat]

Holy cow, how do you do it I think one again you have it spot on. I see what you mean about the frame on the bike shown as I would think it would of been unusual to not of had a lower frame rail at that time. Thanks leon for all you help. Now to see if I can find someone that this will appeal to as I do not think I have patience to try and find parts to make a bike like that. It would probably take a lifetime if it could be done.
       Kind regards, Jon

[chaterlea25]

Hi Leon,
Well done 

John

[friday]

where do you start to find a motor for that thing ?

[33d6]

I wince every time I see vertically coiled piping as used on that Buchet engine. My old apprentice master would have slowly chewed my ear off if i'd tried that on with him. Vertical coils are a disaster waiting to happen. Muck accumulates in the bottom of the coil and bubbles sit in the top creating a potential airlock hazard. It was horizontal coils only with him and coils much tighter than any text book said was possible and much tighter than on that engine.
I'm still useless at making up oil and fuel lines to his standard but after sixty years his very clear instructions and his godawful pipe are very clear in the memory.

Cheers,

[Jonny The Goat]

A bit of a update on this frame. I have now sold it so thanks to all and mainly Leon for helping with the ID of the frame. It was actually the Zedel ? engine bike and not the Buchet engined version. The frames were made in the factory different and the Buchet ones did not have the lower cross bar. I think the buyer also mentioned that the rear engine lug was at a slightly different angle on the Buchet versions. The photos Leon added were actually of the person who has now bought the frame very own bike, it seems he has many and only collects pre 1910 bikes and cars. He paid me what I would think was a very good price and really I could buy a complete but modest running 50's classic of around 350cc quite easily for what this frame raised. My wife thinks they must be mad but I am not complaining   And so should Leon and I ever meet up I owe you quite a few drinks  
                   Best regards, Jon