Author Topic: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history  (Read 32811 times)

Offline JFerg

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2021, 10:52:59 PM »
That is brilliant, Leon, fantastic.  Thank you.  A red herring no more!

Offline JFerg

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2021, 11:02:58 PM »

What did they do with them? Not build two B&S Waratahs, because at this time (1923-4) it was Williams Bros (the elder generation of the family) and not P&R Williams (the younger generation) who were importing and selling Waratahs.


My finger fault on the date.  The order was placed on 13 Nov, 1923 for delivery "on account of Messrs P&R Williams Ltd, Sydney", and was despatched on the 17th.  Both engines complete with AMAC carbs and ML magneto.

At least we know what didn't happen to them.....

Offline JFerg

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2021, 11:15:21 PM »
An even redder herring.

Two other engines, a 500 and a V twin, were despatched to Sydney in April 1923, but just to a shipping mark "S294", which is tantalising.  That 500 is in Ever Onward, but how and why it travelled from Sydney to Wilcannia still in the packaging remains a mystery.

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2021, 01:00:38 AM »
British readers should drive from Sydney west to Wilcannia - a lazy 950 km of big country - to fully appreciate the weirdness of the journey of the B&S. The last 250 km from Cobar to Wilcannia there is, pretty literally, nothing.

The dates associated with the P & R Williams B&S engines are interesting. Shipping was usually only 6 weeks, so the engines would have sat around before being sold on. I bet the brothers had plans!

Leon

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2021, 04:06:34 AM »
WARATAH

The ‘Waratah’ name was used on motorcycles between 1911 and 1953, perhaps the longest running Australian motorcycle brand. The Williams brothers – W.A., G.H. and H.J. – acquired the NSW branch of the Canada Cycle and Motor Agency, 625 George St, Sydney, in 1905, and grew the business dramatically, acquiring other businesses and moving into the purpose-built, seven-storey ‘Canada Building’ at 822 George St early in 1911. The Waratah brand – named for the floral emblem of NSW – appeared on bicycles in 1908, and the first Waratah motorcycle, powered by a 4 ˝ h.p. Fafnir engine, was advertised in the final months of 1911. If built in the Canada building, these Waratahs were among the small number of Waratahs assembled in Australia. A distraction in 1911 was the acquisition of the Douglas agency, which quickly became highly lucrative. In 1913 the brothers restructured the cycle and motor parts of the Canada Cycle and Motor Agency, Ltd, into a new private business: Williams Bros. A fire gutted the Canada Building, causing chaos and a search for new premises. In 1915, W. A. Williams travelled to England and gained the agency for Villiers- and V.T.S.-powered motorcycles, presumably from Sun Cycle & Fittings Co., Ltd, Birmingham. The first machines arrived at Williams Bros, now at 44 Campbell St, in June 1915 and were advertised initially as ‘Villiers’, but soon after as ‘Waratah-Villiers’. The V.T.S. engine joined the Villiers from October; either could be had with single- or two-speed transmission. Supplies continued during and after the war, very closely following the low-end models from the Sun range, all using Villiers engines. By 1928 the Waratah range included quite ‘modern’ saddle tank bikes with the Brampton fork and drum brakes alongside quite primitive machines still using the Sun single-tube frame, dummy-rim brake on the rear and none-at-all on the front. It is likely that all Waratah motorcycles between 1915 and 1928 were imported, complete, from Sun Cycle & Fittings. By this stage, the Williams’ business interests had passed to the next generation. P. H. (Perce) and D. R. (Reg) Williams opened a motor garage in Orange, NSW, in 1914, and after service in the war teamed up again to open P. and R. Williams in Sydney in 1920, a firm that became a subsidiary to Williams Bros. By the late 1920s, Perce and Reg were largely responsible for the Williams’ motor empire, which held many motor car and motorcycle agencies through three firms: Williams, Ltd, P. and R. Williams, Ltd, and the British Motor Cycle Co., Ltd. Waratah motorcycles were handled by Williams, Ltd, and at the time of the Sydney Motor Show in January 1929 it was reported that the 174 c.c. Waratah was being ‘assembled in Sydney from British components’. This local assembly was likely temporary. During 1929 Williams gained the agency for (British) Excelsior motorcycles, and briefly advertised two-stroke Excelsiors alongside Waratahs. Soon Williams dropped Excelsior; the Waratahs they continued to market bore strong family resemblance to the Excelsior machines and were advertised as ‘British made’. P. and R. Williams handled Waratah from about 1931, and it is likely that the machines – 125, 148 and 250cc motorcycles and a 98cc Villiers Junior autocycle in 1939 – were all built by in England by the Excelsior Motor Co. and shipped to Australia complete. Waratahs were last advertised during 1953.

©Leon Mitchell and Robert Saward, 2021

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2021, 02:43:35 AM »
Still going with the Waratah story; so far it's looking pretty much as outlined above. I did find one more reference to "built in Sydney" in 1926, but this is contradicted by other contemporary references to "British". In fact the "British" thing is very strong from the first two-stroke machines in 1915 until the end around 1952, together with words like "arrived" and "landed". Only one actual confession about the origin: "Built by a well-known English firm of motor cycle" in July 1924. Frame numbers and design are consistent with Sun Cycle & Fittings Co., up until 1930. Here's a summary of "the language":

1911-09-09 Manufacturers and Importers of Excelsior, Douglas and Waratah Motor Cycles, Massey, Red-Bird and Waratah Bicycles

1915-05-22 Sole Importers of "Douglas" and "Villiers" Motor Cycles

1915-05-22 "Villiers" motor cycles landing this month

1915-08-14 "Waratah-Villiers" We build this machine to suit Australian conditions

1915-08-21 [W A Williams re his trip to England] I managed to secure stocks of Villiers and VTC [presumably VTS] machines

1916-06-24 Agents for Douglas, Excelsior and Waratah Motor Cycles

1916-11-15 Waratah Motor Cycles - All British Made

1921-09-30 Sole Importers of AJS, Cleveland and Villiers-Waratah Motor Cycles

1922-10-03 Agents: Douglas, Big X and Waratah Motor Cycles

1924-07-11 Williams Bros have received a shipment of Waratah motor cycles

1924-07-12 Built by a well-known English firm of motor cycle manufacturers...

1924-11-08 The 1 1/2 h.p. Waratah; a shipment of these wonderful lightweights has just arrived.

1925-03-20 ...last month proved a record one for the sale of British "Waratah" motor cycles...

1925-07-19 Williams Bros Ltd, sole Sydney agents for the British-made motor cycle Waratah...

1925-ish Instruction Book for British Waratah (Villiers) Motor Cycles. Buy a British Waratah

1925-11-01 Waratah - Britain's Best Value Motor Cycle... made from the highest grade materials by British workmanship.

1926-01-15 The British Waratah motor cycle and the lightweight American Excelsior are also interesting features of the cycle display.

1926-01-18 ...from the little Waratah, which is built in Sydney by them, and is of only 147 c.c. capacity...

1926-03-21 The Waratah (Villiers) - Britain's wonder lightweight Motor Cycle

1926-05-15 The All-British Waratah

1926-05-15 The sturdiness of this British lightweight...

1926-11-06 The 3 1/2 hp Waratah... British Built Throughout

1926-11-21 Williams handles the agency for Douglas and Waratah motor cycles

1926-11-21 ...the British Waratah... prices will definitely increase in December, owing to the increased prices in England, effective since the 4th October 1926.

1927-07-23 The British-built Waratah motor cycles, for which Williams, Ltd, are the distributors

1929-01-08 ...a tiny 147cc solo motor cycle, the Waratah, assembled in Sydney from British components

1931-09-03 ...the Villiers Midget engine... will be obtainable in New South Wales in Waratah motor cycles. The first models to arrive are on view at P and R Williams, Ltd.'s showrooms

1933-03-16 This British lightweight, the 1933 1.97 hp Waratah...

1933-03-16 [1933 Waratah range] These British machines...

1935-08-15 An interesting new arrival in Sydney is the new Waratah motor cycle...

1935-08-16 This cycle, which is manufactured in England, has always had a Villiers engine

1935-12-19 Several shipments of Waratah motor cycles, landed since the announcement of new models last September, were sold practically on arrival...

1951-08-01 The British Lightweight by which all others are judged

Offline R

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2021, 01:24:06 AM »
Looks like you have totally demolished any possibility that Waratahs were anything but an import.

Now, about those ACMEs that Bennett & Wood were building up  ??

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2021, 02:10:00 AM »
Aghh... I will have to look into Acme a bit more. But at least IT IS SAID that the Acme was manufactured by Bennett and Wood - that's a start!

Leon
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 02:25:56 AM by cardan »

Offline 33d6

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2021, 03:56:56 AM »
Well at least I’ve ridden an Acme.
Maybe we can start by killing the old furphy that the coming of the BSA Bantam “killed” the Acme. Not so. Villiers stopped making the 9D Engine Acme used at the same time BSA announced the Bantam. That is what stopped the Acme as we know it.  Regardless of the Bantam the 9D powered Acme was finished. No power unit, no Acme. Not without a complete redesign to suit the next generation of Villiers engines anyway.
Next, I’m sure I’ve come across a history of Bennet & Wood somewhere that had pictures of the Acme being built up from imported lugs and componentry. It was the usual cottage industry stuff as done by two men and a dog.
There was always weird and wonderful stuff going on depending on the import regulations plus general duties and tariffs applicable at the time. I suspect the Acme was more aimed at avoiding these add on costs than any great idea of building an”Australian” motorcycle.

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2021, 04:39:26 AM »
That's an interesting story about the end of the 9D and the Acme. I'd love to see photos of them being made: I've had a look and the newspapers don't have too much to say about the actual manufacture, other than to say, loud and clear, that it was made in Australia by Bennett and Wood. Perhaps the attached article sums it up best: not entirely Australian made, but not a bad effort.

Do we know who made the components? Forks most obviously.

Cheers

Leon

Offline john.k

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2021, 06:22:36 AM »
I think youll find that whole piece was made up as a "block" by B&W,and supplied to the paper along with a couple of quid for the editor.....I was supposed to start an apprenticeship with a company that made up these advertizing/news items for papers and magazines ...all arc lights and strong acids....the blocks were photo engraved on zinc plate,and the block and a proof delivered to the customer.

Offline john.k

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2021, 07:24:32 AM »
B&W was a big business ,and I suspect too much Sydney real estate......they fell victim to asset strippers after the 1980s recession,like so many old companies with  city properties  .....LNC took them over in 1984.

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2021, 08:05:52 AM »
Oh you cynic!! :)

These puff pieces were a feature of Australian motoring journalism from the turn of the century when Harry James wrote copy for the Dunlop Co. that was published in country papers right across the country. My favourite Acme one contains the line: "The "Acme" is a lightweight machine and lacks that customary "open daylight appearance", having a large streamline tank..." Once you've seen such deft turn of phrase in six different papers you get the feeling it is not coincidence!

But, then as now, the story is usually not a massive lie: big firms don't consistently advertise their machines as "made in Australia" if there is not some reasonable amount of assembly and paint. Either side of WW2 is a funny era and I'm not sure how it worked then, but I'm sure there would be at least some "kit" element to the Acme.

In the veteran days the stories I like best are those where the local cycle works invites the locals to "come and see our motorcycles being built". It's a fair bet that there were motorcycles being made!!!

Re Acme forks: I notice the pre-war and post-war versions are quite different. Presumably the whole fork would have been made in the UK.

Cheers

Leon

Offline john.k

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2021, 12:59:56 PM »
B&W wasnt cottage industry......they had a large cycle factory in Redfern?,and I d think it quite likely the bike was made there......Seems they also made a moped with a 50cc motor as well.......Australia wasnt always the crap hole it is now with everything made in China ,and half the population on some kind of disability pension.















« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 01:03:07 PM by john.k »

Offline cardan

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Re: Junkyard Villiers find - Waratah history
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2021, 11:41:27 PM »
Yes B&W were one of the bigger, older firms, going back to veteran days as Bennett, Wood, Roche, Ltd. Before the Acme they marketed the B&W Wasp and Hornet, which (I think!) were something imported and rebadged. I haven't come across an Acme autocycle, so do tell. If it's postwar, technically I don't have to be interested!!

I assume experience with the Wasp and Hornet informed the Acme: perhaps the Acme was a locally-assembled development. The Wasp used the same pressed fork as the pre-war Acme.

Leon