Spark, Bownian, Warrior, Torpedo... who made the frames?

[33d6]

I got copies of several letters between Villiers and Monet Goyon. All dated around 1930-31. All mention the engine amongst other business matters. The last letter of 1931 advises M-G that Villiers weren’t proceeding with it as they were too busy making their new 98cc engine. The engine photos were included in this bundle.

I can’t see Villiers making this engine in 1950 without word of it getting out one way or another. There is absolutely no 1950ish whispers and plenty of info about the 1929-30 effort. I agree it looks modern for 1930 but  Villiers had more engineering experience than we are usually willing to recognise. Check out the 1930 Motorcycle Show and see how many firms offered a Villiers powered machine in their line up.

[R]

We ponder if anyone put this engine into cycleparts, and tried it out ....

I perused the Monet Goyon images under google, to no avail.
My goodness they produced a range of bikes.
Not a make that gets much publicity, in the Anglais world anyway.

Now, would it have had dry sump lube, or drip feed.
More to ponder.
Another-what-might-have-been.

[R]

Oh. Are we sure that this particular engine dates from 1929-30. If so, it looks like it was plucked from a time machine. More likely 1950?

Nortons didn't proceed with their 1st design of parallel twin postwar.
It looked too much like a Triumph - and would have infringed too many patents ?

The question is - would Villiers have patented any of their twin design, for Triumph to infringe !!

We diverge from Villiers frames here, muchly.

[33d6]

According to the correspondence Villiers made three prototype engines and gave one each to S.O.S, one to BroughSuperior and one plus drawings to make more to Monet Goyon.
I’ve heard whispers over the years the Brough engine was merely a non running shell suitable only for fitting in a frame to ensure correct installation. I’ve also heard it is still floating around Brough circles somewhere. Your guess is as good as mine.
I know nothing of the S.O.S effort and only what the correspondence hints at about the Monet Goyon. Anyone have friends at the B-S club?

 

[john.k]

Appears to have a Lucas K2F magneto.........Id also hazard a guess it has chain timing ,by the shape of the case...........certainly looks to be later than 1930.........more like the kind of engines JAP was developing just pre WW2

[cardan]

Appears to have a Lucas K2F magneto.....

This was one of my thoughts, John. Not sure when the Lucas K2F came out, but the flange-mount BTH didn't appear until 1933.

Another thing - which you mentioned earlier - is the enclosed valves. Nothing at all like that in 1930?

Also I wonder when the script Villiers logo - with the top of the V forming an oval - was first used. Maybe on the primary cover of the 8D/9D in the mid 1930s? Was it around in Villiers literature in 1930?

Re patents: there was very little to patent about the parallel twin by the time Val Page then Turner did their work in the 1930s. Most engine configurations had been tried by this stage, parallel twins from the early 1900s, and if a design was already in the public domain there was no way to patent it.

My theory: This Villiers engine is not 1930. (Are we sure the 1930 Villiers 500cc twin was a four stroke, and not a 500cc version of the Pullman two-stroke twin rotated through 90 degrees?) Could be late 1930s, could be 1950. Could it be even later - some kind of universal engine for NVT? With a single Villiers carb, could it be for a non-motorcycle application? Maybe a military contract?

Cheers

Leon

[cardan]

Here we go. A series of patents for details of the engine, filed in 1944-1945 and granted 1946-47. Mostly Villiers Engineering Co. and Frank Anstey. There are four relevant patents, for operating the overhead valves, driving the magneto, driving the dynamo, and lubricating the valve rockers. Nothing specific to a twin, but the timing chest layout in the "driving the magneto" patent clearly shows "our" engine.

Leon

[cardan]

The operation of the valves, and the lubrication of the rockers. The latter patent is illustrated with "a convenient embodiment of the invention as applied to a twin cylinder engine..." So it all fits.

Leon

[cardan]

Nothing specific to a twin...

Actually, reading the patents through, there are a number of mentions along the lines of "for example on a two cylinder motorcycle", so it's really clear all the patents refer to the two cylinder four stroke Villiers engine.

Not sure how Triumph/Turner protected the Triumph design, but maybe the Villiers patents were new ways of doing things to avoid something Triumph had protected.

33d6: Do the 1930-31 Villiers/Monet Goyen letters specifically mention four stroke?

Leon

[Rex]

Not a make that gets much publicity, in the Anglais world anyway.

M-G weren't big exporters, and probably exported nothing at all to markets where British bikes were available.
I had a 1936 350 M-G, and the design was out-dated and the metallurgy pretty sh*tty for the era.
Not many survived Adolf's World Tour, and even less survived the post-war French "keep it going at all costs" concept.

[john.k]

The motor in the pics is definitely the same as the patent drawings,with the exception being the pics seem to have a somewhat Royal Enfield twin appearance for the head and rockers.

[33d6]

Fascinating stuff. I confess I’ve not studied this pile of Monet & Goyon stuff in great depth. Except for a few letters translated into English it’s all in French and my French is minimal. Nor am I that interested in the make to any degree anyway. The page with the engine photos was just stuffed in there as well with no explanation or identification of any sort so I just assumed the 500 twin in the correspondence was the twin in the photos. I’ll now go back and look a lot more carefully. I think Leon got it right.
I’m trying to remember where this pile of literature came from. I’ve had it for years but I can’t remember how it appeared. It was just given to me at some time and essentially I just kept it because Monet & Goyon/ Villers questions pop up at regular intervals.
Cheers,

[john.k]

The magneto drive has some sort of advance mechanism,which is about all that is novel ....the crossover for the valve gear has some similarities to BSA s plans to produce a hemi head Sunbeam S7/S8...........the hemi head Sunbeam was said to be very noisy in the top end ,and BSA dropped the idea ,claiming the worm drive couldnt take any extra powr.

[cardan]

Yes the Villiers patents are not too impressive; the extra rocker between the cam and the valve could only lead to clatter. The fourth patent was for a slip-drive for the dynamo, mounted in the "usual" front position. This might have been innovative c1945.

Re the Monet Goyon 500cc Villiers twin: I reckon be prepared for an up-sized Pullman two-stroke twin. George Brough tried two four-cylinder four-strokes in the late 1920s - the separate-cylinder V4 and the monoblock in-line - both with crankshafts in line with the frame, then bevel for chain. Maybe he liked the 350, but wanted a 500, thinking that a two-stroke twin might feel a bit like a four-stroke 4, and the inline crank seems to have been something that he liked.

Cheers

Leon

[john.k]

The Magdyno has a slip drive for the dynamo......and I cant see G.B. having anything to do with a two stroke in those days .