Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah

[cardan]

Mmm... I took this photo when my camera had film, probably back in the 1980s, at the Motor Museum at Birdwood, South Australia.

I think the bike is the 250cc Waratah on offer from 1935 through 1938. I know nothing about Villiers engines in the 1930s, but is this the 250? What's it called? Mk-something-A no doubt!

In 1939 the 250 had a vertical engine, tubular fork, etc, but would it have used the same engine?

Thanks

Leon

[33d6]

I’d expect that to be a Mk16A, 67x70mm bore & stroke, made 1934-40.mainly viewed as the standard 250cc workhorse of the range.
Villiers made a surprising range of 250’s in that period. With Autolube system or petroil, air cooled, water cooled, short stroke or long stroke, flattop piston, deflector top piston, long bush plain main bearings or ball race with seals. Yer pays yer money and takes yer pick.
The 16A was about as standard as it got. Petroil, deflector piston, long bush plain mains. Well tested technology but will plonk along forever.
That particular Waratah looks very much like the 1938 Excelsior Meritor.

[R]

That particular Waratah looks very much like the 1938 Excelsior Meritor.

Ahah !
Do we have evidence that this re-decalling of Excelsiors-to-Waratahs was going on prewar also then ?

https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-1937/images/Excelsior-1937-250cc-G4-Cat.jpg

[33d6]

Yes we do. We went down that rabbit hole exhaustively some time back. You’ll have todo a little exploration of earlier posts.

[R]

I was involved in the earlier posts !
Having a just postwar 125cc.
Bought from the original owner.
Identical to the Excelsior bar the black (vs maroon) and the decals.
And a few shillings in price.
The 2 shops were only a hundred yards apart in Wentworth Ave.

But don't recall exploring how this evolved pre WW2 ?
The Meritor wasn't mentioned ?

[R]

P.S. The Meritor appears to have a single port Villiers, and the Waratah a twin port.
How does that work ?

Or perhaps the 2nd exhaust is just hiding ??

[cardan]

Thanks for that. I do have a couple of Mk XVI-A engine numbers (prefix AXF) from Waratahs so that will work.

I'm a bit confused because the Villiers book (Browning) says the Mk XVI-A has an "aluminium deflector piston" while Waratah guff in late 1935, for its 1936 model, says two exhaust ports (tick), 67x70 (tick), detachable alloy head (tick), full roller big end (tick), extra long gas tight bronze main bearings (tick), but "alloy flat top piston"!

The XVII-A (BYX prefix) had the flat top piston, but ball mains!

Not to worry - it's a 250 (notice I didn't say 247 or 249!!) Villiers. Should be enough.

Yes, R, all Waratahs from Excelsior from about 1930, prior to that from Sun Cycle & Fittings. Even Excelsior frame numbers, but not necessarily exact Excelsior models.

Cheers

Leon

[R]

Do we have an example of a Waratah that is not an exact Excelsior model ?

I must have skipped class that day. Or my memory has slipped a cog.
And I saved all posts under W
Inc some from elsewheres .....

[R]

And, we note the difference in toolbox between the Meritor and the 'tah 250.
I've also noticed this between my 125 and the Excelsior.

To differentiate them ?
Local manufacture maybe ?
Some were cheaper ??

[cardan]

I don't know how to differentiate them! So far as I know even the frame numbers were similar, but I only have a handful to study. Best to have provenance of a bike with Waratah on the tank, known original owner, original registration or whatever.

It wouldn't surprise me if there was a little bit of "old stock" syndrome, with slightly out of date bikes or older, lower cost parts fitted to the bikes to be sent out. But it was all about commercial pragmatism: Williams Bros were a big (huge, in the automobile trade) and well-established firm, importing and selling quite a number of Waratahs, so clearly they wouldn't be accepting or selling old junk.

My working hypothesis is that Waratahs were built in the UK by Excelsior (from 1930-on) and shipped to Williams Bros in Sydney.
 
Leon

[33d6]

Given that we know catalogue illustrations of any make can have errors and makers were not unknown to send the odd NQR (Not Quite Right) model out here. I can never get too excited about minor  differences.

Personally I go along with Cardans “commercial pragmatism”, with Excelsior juggling the demands of the Australian Excelsior agent (whoever they were) plus William Bros Waratah plus using up as much redundant stock cheaply as possible as they could get away with. We’ll never know all the minor differences and does it really matter?

As for the myriad of differences between the various Villiers 250’s I'm not surprised at the odd publication getting them tangled up. I do the same. With the massive amount of wordage generated about them all a serious reader knows better than taking all these reports at literal face value. There’s bound to be a certain percentage of mistakes.

Do we need to know more or do we know enough?

[R]

My little Waratah 125 was bought from the original owner - decals still (mostly) visible.
He bought it from Williams Bros in Wentworth Ave in Sydney with his army demob pay.
And then rode it the 400 odd miles out to Hillston.
Think he said it took 2 days, but not sure on that.
At 30 mph, thats 13 hours !
Used all his petrol rationing coupons (4 ?) to do it.

Surviving bikes show differences in those toolboxes also, so its not just brochure creep ?

P.S. Tom Byrne in Wentworth Ave was the Excelsior Dealer then. 
About 100 yards up the hill from P & R Williams.
From advertising, the Excelsior was either 5 or 15 shillings dearer.
Byrnes did Triumphs also, and went on to become the main BMW Dealer.

Powerhouse Museums example
Their thick gold pinstripe is different to my thin gold twin pinstripes.
Maybe someone got it wrong ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waratah_motorcycles#/media/File:1948waratahmotorcycle.jpg

[R]

And this looks to be another 250.
1934, Orange NSW, Villiers XVIA engine

https://cdn.justauto.com.au/ad-assets%2F2020-11%2FIMG_20201109_0002.jpg

[cardan]

First, thanks 33d6. Do we need to know more or do we know enough? Nah, I think we know enough.

My best advice to Waratah owners with Waratah painted on the tank is to not re-paint it, or if you have to at least document the original paint. If your bike has original paint, R, at least we know that that particular bike had a double pin stripe. My guess is the Powerhouse Museum example has been repainted. It may have had a single stripe originally, but without documentation, hard to say.

Finally the "1934" 250. Nice and tidy. I'd question the date, because the alloy-head (three bolt) sports model was "all new" to Waratah in August 1935. So hard to date the "Waratah" aspect of the bike before 1935. But what if it has numbers in keeping with a 1934 Excelsior??? I'm putting that in the "i don't need to know" category!!

Cheers

Leon