Author Topic: barr and stroud cotton project  (Read 22588 times)

wetdog

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barr and stroud cotton project
« on: January 20, 2014, 09:01:13 AM »
new week new project , i have recived this info of a member of the forum with reguards to a engine i have , thankyou , and i have a cotton rolling chassis i have placed it in , has anyone a pic of the one cotton made ?

History of engine 537 barr and stroud (this is the one i have ) from the works dispatch records
The joy of a B&S is that you can't hear it run!  It will make no noise at all.  You will hear a bit of whir from the magneto and primary chains, but apart from the exhaust note, nothing.
537 is a 350 Mk I, WA6, shipped to the De Luxe Motor Company on 20 September 1922.
Cotton only bought one engine, in April 1922.  This bike found it's way to a Mr G. Spicer in Essex, and I have a picture of it somewhere.  If I can find it, I'll send it to you.
They were in 126 Sweetman Street, Wolverhampton.  Pre-war they were "AEB", after the founder Mr. AE Bradford, and assembled a few machines, but post war he really kicked off.  Built motorcycles under the "De Luxe" brand, but wheeled and dealed in everything he could, assembling everything from two stroke tiddlers to V twins, no two the same.  Introduced "Model D" in 1922 with the B&S engine.  De Luxe ordered 50 engines at the end of April, 1922, but yours was out of an order for two placed in September.  De Luxe also traded as "Motorities" and sold motorcycles as kits for home assembly
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 09:08:21 AM by wetdog »

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 10:24:36 PM »
Interesting engine.
Although an unusual view of it.

Have you had it running ?
You know that these were often noted as 'high oil consumption' - they smoked like a chimney, and then some. !!
Modern oils may help here.
Is this a single sleeve or twin sleeve version.

Some years back on a veteran car run, one of the participants was an early Daimler sleeve valve engined wee beastie.
Owner said he'd had to rework the sleeves to get it reliable and smokeless.
He'd apparently used Suzuki sleeves, and this solved the metallurgical deficiencies - and reduced the need for oil.
It did run nicely, although was no powerhouse.

Look forward to seeing/hearing more of this to come.

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 10:30:27 PM »
If Cotton only had the one, for experiments, photos may be somewhat rare. ?
Photoshop of a suitable Cotton, with engine pasted in  ??

The 1st bike is said to be a 1923 Cotton Dart - chain driven ohc.
http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/cotton/pair-of-cottons-941x570.jpg

P.S. Stanley Woods won the 1923 350cc TT on a Cotton Blackburne
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9CfqmBA2Y_k/Urfb4xT2ifI/AAAAAAAAaDo/R6Dvyr129xk/s1600/Cotton.JPG
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 10:55:21 PM by R »

Offline 33d6

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 11:33:33 PM »
There is a lot of urban myth surrounding Barr & Stroud. Forget every bar room story you've heard.

As wetdog says they are very quiet mechanically. They smoke no more than any motorcycle engine of the day and use no more oil than any other engine with total loss oil lubrication. Remember they predate the use of oil scraper rings so in an original engine oil will readily be pumped past the standard compression rings just as it is in other early 20's fourstrokes not fitted with oil scraper rings.

Ordinary two-stroke oil (not synthetic) suits them very well and the elliptical sweep of the single sleeve ensure the oil is well distributed where it is needed.

Barr & Stroud made a brilliant engine but unfortunately given the limited quality of lubricants and average rider skills of the day they proved fragile. With accumulated knowledge so we know what NOT to do and modern lubricants (mainly the lubricants) they shine as the brilliant design they are.

Wetdogs bike wont be fast, 60mph max, but it'll be very gutsy with lots of torque so hills wont worry it.
Cheers,

wetdog

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 09:05:02 AM »
not been run yet but hopfully will this year , i would really like a pic of cottons one mind , the person who sent me the info has a 500 B&S in a special and he says its been quite good .

wetdog

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 03:03:26 PM »
for anyone whos interested in these engines http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19to0FCq0-o

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 09:53:56 AM »
There is a lot of urban myth surrounding Barr & Stroud. Forget every bar room story you've heard.

The stories of heavy oil consumption were when these engines were new ?
That was why few manufacturers took up this engine and sold them. ??

wetdog

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 12:39:24 PM »
I think its more to do with the weak point , arm at base of skirt/liner it can snap if over rev
heres the 500 http://www.carrickdesign.co.uk/BroughScott/Brough/barrstroudjohnferguson.html
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 01:20:50 PM by wetdog »

Offline JFerg

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 02:56:07 AM »
To lump all sleeve valve engines together and apply conclusions drawn to all is just as wrong as doing the same with poppet valved engines.

R's comments relate to the double sleeve White/Minerva/Daimler/Knight car engine.  This had three crankshafts, one for the conrod, and one each for the inlet and exhaust sleeves.  The sleeves were concentric, reciprocated straight up and down (thus concentrating wear) and had tiny letter-box slots for ports.  Very quiet, of humble performance, and due to the wear actions and multiple boundaries, given to smokiness when worn.  Design lends itself to in-line engines.

They're not to be confused with the single sleeve valve of Barr & Stroud/Argyll/Bristol/Napier and Rolls Royce.  The single sleeve oscillates in an elliptical path, has large ports that open and close rapidly and are not obstructed by valve heads.  As 33d6 rightly points out, the sleeve action is near to perfect for spreading both wear and lubricant.  Breathing is excellent.  Volumetric efficiency of a B&S exceeds that of a current model four-valve per cylinder Nissan.

There are complexities in making a single sleeve valve in-line engine.  Argyll used skew gears and a shaft initially, before going over to a wobble shaft in later engines, but both options were expensive to make.  Singles, twins and radials were much easier.

Single sleeve valve engines hit their peak in WW2 aero engines.  Bristol Centaurus, Napier Lion, and I forget what the "H" pattern RR was called.  All rendered obsolete by jet turbines, but still the most powerful spark ignition engines ever built.

Where the RAF overhaul period for a poppet valved aero engine was 500 hours, for a ssv engine it was 1500 hours.

The limiting factor on B&S engines is the carburettors of the day.  Rapid throttle opening results in hesitant, lean running until equilibrium is returned, far, far worse than the same effect in a poppet valve engine, because they breath so deeply.  Carbs with an accelerator pump, even better, fuel injection, would solve this.

Fewer than 2,000 motorcycle engines were made, and the vast majority were 350cc like Wetdogs.  They were used by almost all of those manufacturers reliant on proprietary engines, from Brough Superior through Rudge.  By their nature they were more expensive than the rival offerings from the proprietary engine floggers, but apart from their being regarded as "unconventional" at a time before "convention" had been established, there wasn't much wrong with them.  However, unlike all of the other proprietary engine builders, engines (or even motor trade) were not B&S main line of business.  They were, still are, precision optical engineers and manufacturers; binoculars, periscopes, rangefinders etc.  This business of course dried up with the armistice of 1918, then vanished completely as ex-WD stuff flooded the tiny market that was left, and so they sought a slice of the burgeoning engine market.  By 1927, the WD work was coming back, and engine manufacture ceased.



Offline murdo

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 07:02:14 AM »
Shame they didn't continue with them. With modern materials and manufacturing they might have been a real alternative for poppet valve engines.

wetdog

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 07:50:21 AM »
they where both professers I understand so must have known a thing or two regards enginnering of the day

Offline murdo

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2014, 06:42:10 AM »
Today visited a museum in the Hunter Valley in NSW and found a 1923 Beardmore frame with a Barr and Stroud engine sitting in the frame. These things get about.

wetdog

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2014, 08:33:39 AM »
never seen one , frame looks interesting , hope the engines not sized can be difficult to free off (mine was)

Offline R

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2014, 10:23:16 PM »
Beardmore are listed as one of the few manufacturers (the only ?) who did a run of B&S models.
Rather than just ordering individual engines if required ?

Offline P.V. Motorcycles

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Re: barr and stroud cotton project
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 06:27:28 PM »
Excellent thread, which I've just blundered across.

P.V. offered all of the engines for 1924 - the 350 as the model K (also offered the 350cc JAP and Bradshaw equivalents), the 500 as the model J (also offered a 500cc JAP v-twin), and the big v-twin as the '8 h.p. Model' (also offered a 976cc JAP v-twin).

Attached a couple of pics of the 8 h.p. model, with all the options on.

Nick