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11
British Bikes / Re: Hot Start Problem
« Last post by cardan on Today at 05:42:20 AM »
Oh, and by all means use the BSA method of points 0.003" open with the magneto on full retard and the engine at TDC. But you have to first set the points gap to 12 thou (no doubt listed somewhere in your BSA literature?), then set the timing by moving the magneto gears, not adjusting the points gap.
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British Bikes / Re: Hot Start Problem
« Last post by cardan on Today at 05:37:52 AM »
Hi Billington,

In your photo the rubbing block is well past the opening ramp: when it is in this position the points gap should be about 0.012".

For most of the rotation of the magneto the points should be open about 12 thou; for the rest the points should be closed. Only when the rubbing block hits the ramps and begins opening the points will the gap pass (instantaneously) through 0.003". (And again when closing, but this plays no role in the spark.)

When BSA talks about the points being open 0.003", they mean that the rubbing block has hit the ramp and the points have opened about a quarter the way to fully open (0.012"). This defines an exact point in the rotation of the magneto.

You've asked for help, we've provided it with care an attention. Have you considered accepting it? Humour us. Try it out.

Cheers

Leon
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British Bikes / Re: Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by R on Today at 03:54:03 AM »
P.S. The Meritor appears to have a single port Villiers, and the Waratah a twin port.
How does that work ?

Or perhaps the 2nd exhaust is just hiding ??
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British Bikes / Re: Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by R on Today at 02:35:48 AM »
I was involved in the earlier posts !
Having a just postwar 125cc.
Bought from the original owner.
Identical to the Excelsior bar the black (vs maroon) and the decals.
And a few shillings in price.
The 2 shops were only a hundred yards apart in Wentworth Ave.

But don't recall exploring how this evolved pre WW2 ?
The Meritor wasn't mentioned ?
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British Bikes / Re: Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by 33d6 on Today at 12:40:40 AM »
Yes we do. We went down that rabbit hole exhaustively some time back. You’ll have todo a little exploration of earlier posts.

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British Bikes / Re: Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by R on Today at 12:09:38 AM »
That particular Waratah looks very much like the 1938 Excelsior Meritor.

Ahah !
Do we have evidence that this re-decalling of Excelsiors-to-Waratahs was going on prewar also then ?

https://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/excelsior-1937/images/Excelsior-1937-250cc-G4-Cat.jpg
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British Bikes / Re: Hot Start Problem
« Last post by R on Today at 12:04:20 AM »
It is not entirely clear (to me) what method you are now going to use to set the ignition timing,
but I'd comment that if it is not going to verify that it is sparking at that 3/8" BTDC at full advance,
then we might be back to square one ?

And, the fuzzy logic of "hot gases" escapes me also. If BSA increased the tappet clearance, it is
very likely that they found the valve was growing with heat, until it lost any clearance.
At this point it may/would/could start losing compression - which may make them
a) difficult to restart
b) begin to burn a valve, since the hot gases would/could be continuously escaping.
And this would not be good.
Hopethishelps
Have fun !

18
British Bikes / Re: Hot Start Problem
« Last post by Billington on July 03, 2025, 09:51:36 PM »
Thank you 33d3 and Rex, I have a copy of Munro’s “BSA a practical guide covering all models from 1931”, which I have read and applied it’s settings to my bike. Your point about tappet clearance is interesting; page 189 shows how the exhaust setting changed from 6 to 8 thousandths of an inch from 1932 to 1933 for essentially the same engine. It’s tempting to rationalise that this increase may have been to reduce engine temperature by creating a bigger passage for hot gases.

I would like to make a reference from page 82 of the same book. Below is an excerpt for those who do not own a copy of the book.

Ignition

No improvement can be expected from an alteration to the ignition timing. In fact the reverse is almost invariably the case, too much advance producing roughness, without any speed increase, while a retarded spark causes sluggishness and overheating, although the owner may be tempted to retard his ignition a trifle in order to take advantage of the slightly greater flexibility thus obtained. Yet it is a certain fact that many owners re-time their engines as a matter of course as soon as the dealer’s back is turned. This is proved by the number of machines which find their way back to factory repair departments, or to repairer’ premises, with ignition timing hopelessly out. And it is significant that the complaints for which such machines are returned is often attributable soley to the experiment on the owner’s part. 

I do not reference this passage for churlish point scoring reasons, merely to clarify my reasoning for not making changes that are not evidence based. It is with an orderly mind and a logical neatness that mechanics diagnose and resolve issues. Hence I will make a test table, which is my usual practice that records incremental  changes made, the rationale for making the change and the outcome. This has ensured satisfactory conclusions for technical problems for me in the past.

I will include the following tests and changes, individually, within my causes of overheating test table
1, Weak fuel mixture
2, Burnt valves
3, Carbon build up
4, Insufficient exhaust tappet clearance
6, Increase exhaust tappet clearance

Finally, yes, I will be using Magneto setting contained within the “BSA Motorcycle Instruction Book”, but rather than use the “All models 1930 to 1936” I will use the “1932 Models” edition. The reason for this is that it has a clear diagram showing a Lucas Magneto with the follower about half on the start of the cam.

This image shows where I set the points to 3 thousands of an inch, which I now believe could be about 40° to late. I was informed to use this point by someone with significant knowledge of Magnetos, but I think he expected me to use this when the piston was at 3/8 before TDC.

I will let you know how I get on.


19
British Bikes / Re: Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by 33d6 on July 03, 2025, 02:13:03 PM »
I’d expect that to be a Mk16A, 67x70mm bore & stroke, made 1934-40.mainly viewed as the standard 250cc workhorse of the range.
Villiers made a surprising range of 250’s in that period. With Autolube system or petroil, air cooled, water cooled, short stroke or long stroke, flattop piston, deflector top piston, long bush plain main bearings or ball race with seals. Yer pays yer money and takes yer pick.
The 16A was about as standard as it got. Petroil, deflector piston, long bush plain mains. Well tested technology but will plonk along forever.
That particular Waratah looks very much like the 1938 Excelsior Meritor.
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British Bikes / Villiers engine in 1930s Waratah
« Last post by cardan on July 03, 2025, 12:03:18 PM »
Mmm... I took this photo when my camera had film, probably back in the 1980s, at the Motor Museum at Birdwood, South Australia.

I think the bike is the 250cc Waratah on offer from 1935 through 1938. I know nothing about Villiers engines in the 1930s, but is this the 250? What's it called? Mk-something-A no doubt!

In 1939 the 250 had a vertical engine, tubular fork, etc, but would it have used the same engine?

Thanks

Leon
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