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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by R on October 17, 2021, 11:24:41 PM »
Just pointing out the facts of life
Which some obviously never consider

Somewhat akin to some folks will tell you that Harley Davidson invented the motorcycle.
And they mean it...
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by Rex on October 16, 2021, 07:15:00 PM »

But if you take a critical look at things, the English (British) seem to have a penchant for taking
others perfectly good thread systems, and 'developing' it into something they can label as their own. !
So we have BA, which is a adaption/mangling of a Swiss clockmakers metric thread, 47.5 degrees and all,
such that present day metric nuts are a (poor loose) fit.
An indication of how closely they copied it. ?  But not copied it exactly ...

Took/adapted/developed/whatever....you seem to have some deeper narrative you want to post about.
Do the Wokies know about this alleged thread appropriation? I don't want some pink-haired harpies picking up on your posts and cancelling my BA thread selections.
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British Bikes / Re: Utility motorcycles
« Last post by cardan on October 16, 2021, 10:24:45 AM »
Thanks 33d6 - very interesting!

I wonder if the presence of so many Mk VIIIC powered Utilities is a suggestion that they were locally built up from old stock. Unless Montgomery, or Excelsior, or someone else in the UK was building them and shipping them out here - too dated for the home market but just fine (at the right price) for the antipodes.

Anyway, I await the full analysis, but keep in mind that although I'm interested, perfect detail is not required for the current project. By the way, some of the previous Utility converstation starts here: http://classicmotorcycleforum.com/index.php?topic=6172.msg30144#msg30144

I'm working on the Ps at the moment. As usual, I've done most of the easy ones first. Pasco is the current puzzle - particularly the early years pre-1919. Stanley John Samuel Pascoe was the man, and in 1919 he entered into partnership with Con McRae, and trading as McRae & Pascoe they sold the Pasco Masterpiece, which was built for them by A. G. Healing. McRae left the partnership first, leaving his name behind, then Pascoe did the same, so in 1922 in Melbourne there was Pasco Motors run by Stan Pascoe, and McRae & Pascoe, where you would find neither Mr McRae nor Mr Pascoe!!

All the behind-the-scenes stuff is good fun, but the real deal is the bikes. With Pasco the problem is that there are two Pascos that have survived that pre-date McRae & Pascoe era. There is talk of a brother. I've just run down a promising lead in Bendigo where William Pascoe had a bicycle/engineering business, and during WW1 there is a reference to it as 'Pascoe Bros'. There was even a Stanley Pascoe from Bendigo who was injured in the war. But then it turns out the Bendigo Stanley Pascoe was not our Stanley Pascoe and we're back to square one. Sigh.

Maybe in the future I can ask when the first Pasco motorcycle was registered in Victoria.

Cheers

Leon
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British Bikes / Re: Utility motorcycles
« Last post by 33d6 on October 16, 2021, 05:18:40 AM »
Finally, finally, FINALLY, I have some 'Utility' answers. Thanks to a very helpful sponsor who wishes to remain anonymous we are near to starting the process of digitisiing all the AOMC engine number information held on 16mm microfilm.
I won't bore you with all the nonsense of seeking out a 16mm reader, blah,blah,blah, but I now have a sample demo file of what can be done with digitising and it includes the 'Utility' information. I will only say this about the original microfilm process. Never, never, never, leave it in the hands of an unsupervised office junior. It's obvious from the result how the organisation viewed the task of microfilming old records and how it got pushed downwards to the low man on the totem pole.. What a bloody mess. Anyhow, after much faffing about I've now got an overview of the Utility story. Getting it all correct and shipshape is going to take rather longer.

There are some 115 Utility recorded on the system. The great preponderance, some two thirds or so, are Villiers powered with either the early Mk VIIIC 148cc engine or its successor the Mk 12C, 147cc engine with some powered by the 123cc unit construction 8D/9D engine. One of these has the lowest engine number I've ever seen for this engine, AA686, so is from the first year of production, 1936.
Theoretically the Mk VIIIC ceased being used in motorcycles in 1931 with its role being taken over its successor the Mk12C but there are quite a lot of the earlier type. Did Villiers give Utility a good deal to use up these out of date engines? We'll never know will we.
From 1935 on there is a scattering of J.A.P. powered bikes, all ohv, and mainly 250 or 500's with very few 350 ohv. Mostly all dry sump versions but some not. It looks like 'Utility' did try to provide a bike with up to date technology.
I still have to plough through the handwritten initial registration dates which are an unholy mess so can't yet say when the first Utility was sold but we do know that this was yet another business that didn't survive WWII, so no post war Utility.

We are getting there, painfully slowly, but we are moving forward.

Cheers,
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by R on October 15, 2021, 11:07:53 PM »
I'd also add that in my modest collection of bikes, I think I've previously counted something like
16 different threading systems. This covers a few continents and a fair spread of years.
But thats a lot....

There is a good reason of course why plumbing and electrical and general threads should be different,
so that never the twain shall meet, but ...

A Norton Commando has 7 (or 8 )?  of those.
One I can dismantle with a single 12mm spanner/wrench.
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by R on October 15, 2021, 11:03:02 PM »
I'm not denying that, at all.

But if you take a critical look at things, the English (British) seem to have a penchant for taking
others perfectly good thread systems, and 'developing' it into something they can label as their own. !
So we have BA, which is a adaption/mangling of a Swiss clockmakers metric thread, 47.5 degrees and all,
such that present day metric nuts are a (poor loose) fit.
An indication of how closely they copied it. ?  But not copied it exactly ...

I thought you'd be more appreciative of that Salisbury Cathedral clock mechanism.
Even if Mr Whitworth played no part in it.
Engineering was alive and well, post the Roman era !
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by Rex on October 15, 2021, 11:15:36 AM »
But Whitworth was almost entirely unsuitable for IC engine use.
Apart from threading a few stray coarse threaded studs into aluminium.
/quote]


You seem to be presuming  the Whit threadform was the sum total of the man's life.
Have a read-
 https://www.whitworthsociety.org/history.php?page=2

His greatest achievement was the concept and start of thread standardisation across the industrial world, and with the greatest respect to medieval Salisbury cathedral, their particular claim is rather a non-starter.
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by R on October 15, 2021, 08:48:51 AM »
But Whitworth was almost entirely unsuitable for IC engine use.
Apart from threading a few stray coarse threaded studs into aluminium.
And he only standardized a hodgepodge of things.

Clockmakers threads on the other hand go way way back.
Salisbury Cathedral think/claim this is 1386

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_Cathedral_clock#/media/File:Salisbury_Cathedral,_medieval_clock.JPG
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by Rex on October 15, 2021, 08:21:02 AM »
Well, then you have to ask WHY all the (very) British thread standards emerged, when all the early motoring was done with French engines

The thread and fastener standardisation started by that nice Mr Whitworth started lonnng before the era of of early French IC engines...
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British Bikes / Re: Stud Thread size
« Last post by R on October 14, 2021, 09:53:30 PM »
Well, then you have to ask WHY all the (very) British thread standards emerged, when all the early motoring was done with French engines
- so would have been largely metric . (even if metric wasn't standardized until 1919.)
A bit like really early American cars started driving on the left, but then switched to the right.
These decisions appear on the face of it to be less than entirely logical ... ?

Oh, and an Swiss clockmakers threads used 47.5 degrees, so we can see where BA got that from.
Even if the rest of it was nearly metric, but not quite.

One wonders if patent specifications may come into it somehow ??

Yes that top head bolt on dommies and Commandos was a pain.
I've misplaced the ground down socket that fits, don't tell me I have to do another one.
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