kick starter slips

[slidder]

I got a hold of the builder and he said I should have a look on the primary side and check the nut that is centered between the three springs.  I was able to tighten in another 1/4 turn with a hand wrench (and a screw driver to keep the shaft from turning).  He was surprised when I told him that, he said use and air impact wrench to make it tighter.  With minimum air pressure the nut stripped and came off.  It seems that the slipping is on the tapered shaft. When I get some spare time (rare these days) this week I am going to pull the clutch to see if there is any damage to the shaft. He is sending me a replacement nut in the meantime and said he will talk me through the repair over the phone as well as send any parts I need.
About the slack in the clutch cable, I have not figured that one out yet.  It was tight and worked fine when I got it but once I replaced the ratchet gears and reassembled things, that is when the cable went limp and left the lever useless.

[L.A.B.]

I was able to tighten in another 1/4 turn with a hand wrench (and a screw driver to keep the shaft from turning).

Exactly which nut is it that you have stripped?

It sounds as if you could have have stripped the lock nut on the clutch pushrod adjuster?
And you wouldn't do that up with an air tool normally.

To get at the clutch hub nut you would have had to slacken and remove the three clutch spring nuts and also have removed the pressure plate but you have not mentioned doing that?  


Could you also verify exactly which model of "68 Tiger" it is? As "68 Tiger" could be either a 350cc Tiger 90, or 500cc Tiger 100 S,R, C or T. (Hunter did ask that already)


Have you got a workshop manual? (and a parts book?)

As I think they would help you a lot.  

[L.A.B.]

About the slack in the clutch cable, I have not figured that one out yet.  It was tight and worked fine when I got it but once I replaced the ratchet gears and reassembled things, that is when the cable went limp and left the lever useless.

If it was OK before you replaced the ratchet gear, then you probably did something wrong in that area, so isn't that where you should have started looking for the cause of the problem?

[Rex]

He was surprised when I told him that, he said use and air impact wrench to make it tighter.

Now that's worrying when a "builder" says things like that.
Surmising it IS the clutch centre nut you're referring to ( that secures the clutch centre on it's taper c/w woodruff key) but a taper doesn't need excessive tightening to hold; it's what tapers do well. The woodruff and nut then hold it in place.

I can't believe he recommended this as a first step. He does appreciate that the woodruff key would have to  be missing for the centre to rotate on the shaft, I suppose? :-/

As someone else said, a good manual would help you, I think.

[L.A.B.]

If the clutch has somehow become jammed at full or partial lift, due to something in the lifter mechanism being installed incorrectly by slidder when he sorted the kickstart ratchet, then that might not only explain the slack cable and lever, but also the clutch could just be slipping as it would be expected to do if it was being held at full or partial lift, so there may be nothing wrong with the taper or woodruff key?
I hope slidder can fill us in with a few more accurate details about exactly what he has done?

[Hunter]

If the bike is a unit 350 or bigger, then the clutch operating mechanisim should be the three ball type. If after re-assembly Slidder got the balls on load,ie opening the clutch, and then screwed the case shut, this would give both cable slack and clutch slip.
As for the clutch adjusting screw and locknut, Slidder this is where you adjust the free play in the clutch cable, so some clearance is needed here. The cable should be adjusted to take up the slack, but operating clearance is set with the adjusting screw in the centre of the clutch pressure plate. You need about 1/8" movement at the handlebar lever.

[Rex]

[=6E46404B424D4D4A4042230 link=1236368531/15#20 date=1237408934]If the bike is a unit 350 or bigger, then the clutch operating mechanisim should be the three ball type.

No, the earlier ones were of the scroll type, but it's not possible for the three-ball type to rest in the "operated" condition, as the balls work on a ramp, and the natural rest position is therefore "down" ie clutch engaged.


As for the clutch adjusting screw and locknut, Slidder this is where you adjust the free play in the clutch cable,
Err, no again. This adjustment is meant for adjusting the operating clearance of the clutch pushrod. The cable plays no part at this stage.

[Hunter]

I,ll leave this one to you Rex, you seem to have all the answers.

[L.A.B.]

[=6E46404B424D4D4A4042230 link=1236368531/15#20 date=1237408934]If the bike is a unit 350 or bigger, then the clutch operating mechanisim should be the three ball type.

No, the earlier ones were of the scroll type, but it's not possible for the three-ball type to rest in the "operated" condition, as the balls work on a ramp, and the natural rest position is therefore "down" ie clutch engaged.

Earlier models, did indeed have the quick thread operating mechanism, but as the model in question is from 1968, it should have the ball and ramp which dates back to at least 1964, or earlier?  

[Rex]

I,ll leave this one to you Rex, you seem to have all the answers.

I wish I did, but unfortunately the two points you made were both incorrect. The three-ball mechanism can't rest in the operated position, and the screw and lock-nut adjuster aren't for the cable. Sorry, but that's basic Triumph mechanics.

[slidder]

I found where the slipping is (this is a 650 Tiger).  I removed the pressure plate and clutch plates.  I supported the clutch center so that it wold not move while I pushed on the kicker with my foot.  The tapered shaft that has the large nut on it is slipping.   I tried to make it tighter with my impact wrench but it was already tight.  I loosened it up and ran it back down to make sure it was as tight as I could get it but it still slips.  How bad is this?  I assume I will have to replace the shaft and what else?  I still do not have a parts list with a blow up.

How do you think the builder should handle this? (he is about 800 miles away).
1) I offered to send the motor back to him for repairs or
2) Send me the parts and some cash for labor or
3) Have him pay a local mechanic to fix it.
I have not heard back from him yet.

I will let you guys know what he chooses to do.
How expensive of a repair is this?

[Rex]

The centre is fitted on a taper, and should grip. It also should have a woodruff key in there too, but clearly it hasn't. You need to strip it out to see what's missing or damaged, and worst case is a new centre + mainshaft needed. Sometimes (if the damage insn't too bad) the parts can be lapped together with grinding paste, but if the grooves or damage is excessive, then forget it and get new as it won't hold.

As for your "builder", he sounds clueless......  

[thunderbird]

i thought it sounded like it was on the primary side from your earlier posts. as rex has suggested you will need to remove the complete clutch off of the shaft there may be no damage to the shaft it could just be the woodruff key was ommited when it was assembled under heavy load it will not hold on the taper alone, or it could be the woodruff key has sheared off in the keyway i did suggest this in an earlier post but thought this unlikely if the bike had been proffesionally rebuilt? if it has sheared check the keyway for damage,also if it has the shock absorber clutch fitted find out if the builder replaced the rubbers in it if they are worn out this will put a lot of extra stress on the keyway.i have had the problem on pre unit triumphs  more than once over the years and the first indicators are the clutch cable going slack. Steve

[Hunter]

Sorry, but that's basic Triumph mechanics.
Well Rex, I don,t know your past experience with bikes just as you don,t know mine, I think we,ll just have to disagree on somethings, and us arguing is of no help to Slidder.

We now know that either the woodruff key was left out or has sheared, this accounts for the clutch "slip" but not the slack cable.

Where Rex and I do agree is in our belief the the builder of this bike is clueless. I have great fears of what else you may find along the way.

[thunderbird]

just another point on the slack cable slidder.the point in my last post about this being an indicator to a stripped keyway or loose retaining nut,this only comes about when the clutch parts company with the taper creating a gap between the pressure plate and clutch pushrod,as you were only able to do the retaining nut  a 1/4 turn this seems unlikely, so as LAB has pointed out there may also be a problem with the opperating side of it aswell .