Sturmey Archer Gearbox Codes

[arielhunter]

Can anyone help me with Sturmey Archer Gearbox codes. I am looking for the correct gearbox for my 1930 Ariel basket case. The Ariel catalogue calls it an LS Sturmey Archer gearbox. I have located a gearbox with the serial number LS ....... Does this mean it is a 3 speed LS model gearbox?? Many thanks for your advice.

[33d6]

This is a very knotty problem. Yes you have an LS box but that is only the start.
Sturmey Archer were very flexible in what they would do for a manufacturer. For example they used different length main shafts for some manufacturers so the box looks the same but your clutch and engine sprocket won't line up. They also provided many different cases and various endcovers to fit them.
What you need to do is get a copy of the 1930 LS catalogue from the VMCC Library and go through it very carefully to see what (if any) special parts were made for your Ariel and then compare it with the box you talk about.
If you give me the full gearbox number I can date it for you as the LS box was made for quite a few years with many changes.
Cheers,
PS all LS boxes are 3 speed.

[arielhunter]

Thanks very much 33d6 for all that info. I really appreciate the help.
The gearbox serial numbers are LS 14830 and it is alleged it came out of a 1931 Ariel. Thanks again. Regards, John.

[33d6]

Hi again,
Are you sure you have copied out the full number? The LS box was made in large quantities from 1922 to 1930 and LS14830 is very early, I date it at 1923. If you missed one  number  so it is really up around the 140,000 mark then it is a 1927 box.
I have several vintage Matchless all fitted with Sturmey Archer boxes hence my familiarity with the breed. I've suffered your problem once or twice myself.
I checked my copy of the 1930 LS catalogue I got from the VMCC Library and there is definitely a section devoted to Ariel special parts. It is very helpful as it gives all the necessary dimensions, sprocket sizes, etc that you need and makes life much easier for you.
Of course they are also good for all the other original Ariel info you want. Catalogue, illustrated sparets list and so on. I've always been very happy with their Library. It's amazing what they have.
Cheers,

[arielhunter]

G'day 33d6,
Thank you for your further responses.
I went back to the dealer yesterday and scrutinised the box I was looking to purchase.
Under a magnifying glass (literally) the serial numbers appear to be LW 314830 I think although its not very clear. The 3 looks like it was stamped over the W making it look a bit like an S to the naked and ever hopeful eye!
Looking futher at the box it is clear it's not an LS as its configuration means it is a hanging box and therefore not correct for a 1930 Ariel. Oh well - back the search again!!
I would however be interested to know what you think and if you could date the box for me please.
Many thanks.
Regards,

John.

[33d6]

Hi again John
This is where I drive you crazy as you were definitely looking at an LS box. Don't ask me why but Sturmey Archer used either LW or HW as a number prefix on the LS box.
They also list 31 different cases and 18 different end covers in their 1930 catalogue alone so finding the right one straight off is like winning Tatts. Don't worry too much as a lot of the differences are minor,eg, with a speedo facing or without one. When you boil it down there are only about half a dozen distinct types with the greater part of the internals usually interchangeable.
I'm unsure about the number you quote. My info says 1930, numbers up to 170,000 so the number you quote is way, way over the top.. There was an improved LS type made for 1930-32 but I have no info on them.
Can I assume fro your G'day greeting that you live in Godzone? I'm a Melbourne man myself. It might make life easier.
Finally, buy the box regardless! You will then have something to learn on or a good source of spares for the proper box when it comes or you have something to trade with and speed you on your way. When you own a bike with a Sturmey Archer box you learn never to walk past one regardless of condition or need.
Cheers,

[Martin_UK]

Gents,
LW = Lightweight for bikes typically up to 350cc
HW = Heavyweight for bikes typically 500cc and above

I'm looking for a 2 stud LS 383 gearbox case for an AJS S10 OHC if anyone knows of one available ?

Regards,

Martin

[33d6]

Sorry Martin,
To quote direct from Sturmey Archer literature,
Sturmey Archer 3 speed countershaft Gear LS type. Suitable for Engines from 300cc to 1000cc.
They certainly used heavier components in those variants to be used in larger 1000cc machines ,for example by fitting 4 plate clutches, sprockets for heavier chains and four stud mountings but they were still LS gearboxes even though the ID number for these would be prefixed HW.
Basically the LW and HW prefixes are a guide to the original usage but the boxes are still within the general LS family.
My T series 350 & 500 Matchless have LS gearboxes fitted and they are prefixed LW. My V series and X series Matchless also have LS boxes fitted but they are prefixed HW.
The thing remains that working out all the Sturmey Archer variations is maddening to say the least. Sturmey Archer appeared to be very flexible and would make all sorts of changes to suit their buyers and our chances nowadays of picking up exactly the right box first time are very slim. Good luck in your search. A 1931 AJS is a nice thing to have.
Cheers,

[Martin_UK]

33d6, no need for you to to be sorry,

I understand perfectly that SA made LS gearboxes for
various manufacturers and that they were subdivided into LW & HW prefixes for differing capacities of machines as I have stated

I think you should check the gearbox fitted to your 500cc to check it should be an LW ? I'm sure if you stripped down your HW boxes and compared them to your LW boxes you would see the difference.

This isn't just my opnion, but the knowledge of the guys who have been restoring the older bikes for the last 50 odd years and have given me the benefit of thier invaluable time and knowledge.

As regards what's printed in their sales literature it wouldn't be the first time that manufacturers literature didn't provide the whole truthful picture would it ?

Regards,

Martin

[33d6]

Hi Martin,
We're getting away from Johns' original question here but Matchless did use the LW in one of their 500s. They fitted the HW version to their 500ohv V series and the LW version to their 500sv T series machines.
I agree wholeheartedly about using the knowledge of the old guys who have been restoring these bikes for 50 years or more. Unfortunately you describe me and it's depressing to write that, as it means my riding days are closing in. It's frustrating. By the time you really, really know what you're doing your body says, "Nahh, I can't cope with this anymore." A 500 mile ride was once a mere romp, nowadays I just about have to be peeled off the seat after a mere 50 miles. Don't get old!!
And yes, sales literature has to be taken with a grain of salt but most firms did try to get their spare parts catalogues reasonably correct. Regardless of what you think of them spare parts lists are a goldmine of information. Even if the odd bit and piece is fools gold.
Cheers,

[davebarkshire]

Ariel used the SA box from 1928 on the models A and E. These were the budget models although the SA is possible a better item than the Burman used on the other models. The look of these Burmans is quite distinct and they come up on ebay about once every thousand years for about a million pounds.

[arielhunter]

Thanks for your comments and photo Dave. Your correct - I've never seen an LS box on ebay. Incidently, how's the "Black Ariel " book coming along?
Does anyone have an LS 'box lying about as a door stop that they would like to sell?
To answer your much earlier question 33d6(sorry for the delay!), yes I'm also in Godzone - BrizVegas that is. Please feel free to email me on arielhunter@hotmail.com.
Cheers,

John.

[davebarkshire]

John, The Black Ariel book is on sale as we speak. Although it has not yet been announced beyond the yahoo forum (it will be announced in the next cheval) it has been selling very fast and a third have gone already. There are 100 copies only and they are hardback, full colour, 176 pages of pure Black Arielism.

The books are being sold by John Mitchell
http://www.barkshire.co.uk/blackariels

[1938_G90]

German Ebay #230333493154 - SA LS250 complete.

According to the 1930 SA list, LS250 is a 1930 Arial Sturmey Archer case, and it looks very similar to Daves box.

Rgds,
Christian (DK)

[arielhunter]

Thanks very much Christian.
Regards,

John.