c1929 Excelsior Villiers racer

[cardan]

I am currently "recomissioning" an Excelsior fitted with a racing Villliers motor. Unfortunately it is not mine!

The provenance of the Brooklands Villiers motor in the bike is pretty good: it was brought out to Australia in 1929, and was used to set records at races on Sellicks Beach (south of Adelaide) on January 1, 1930. The flying mile was knocked off in 57 seconds - about 63 mph, which is not bad for a 172cc motor. The cylinder had Brooklands cast across the lower rear flange. The engine number is S 43002.

But what of the cycle parts? It is said that the motor, after racing in various events in various frames in the early 1930s, was reunited with its original frame parts and Albion close ratio box, and restored some 20-30 years ago. Does this seem plausible? The front fork is Druid with side springs. The frame has a couple of numbers: on the right side of the seat lug it has 372 in rather small numerals, and on the left side of the head lug down towards the front down tube it has 3  L300 stamped in larger letters. The Albion box is stamped ER 278 on the bottom right corner of the timing side end cover.

I doubt that the bike has been ridden any distance since restoration - there are some issues!

Comments welcome.

Leon

[R]

Got a pic of it in its heyday ?
Always the best judge of how it would have looked.

Those pipes looked sqaured off and modern, to my eyes anyway.
And that head looks like the plans got mixed up with something else ?

Great looking bike though, looks - purposefull.

No front guard means a lot of sand on the goggles.
And in the works....

[33d6]

C"mon Leon,
You only put that photo up 'cos you knew it'd make a grown man cry! As someone having a lot of fun with his own ' 29 Excelsiors a proper racing one fitted with a Brooklands engine would nicely round out my little group.
The frame number is right for 1929, two of mine are L1624 and L1625 plus I have two (I suspect 1930) that are unnumbered and I have found most of the various lugs on the frame have a three digit number such as your 372, stamped on them. I believe the lug numbers to be just an internal factory tracking system. The E type Albion gearbox is the right optional extra, standard wear was a C type Albion two-speeder but a three speed option was offered.
I like the front fork treatment. They are not the regular fitting for that frame but are the type used on the larger Excelsior in the 1929 range. Given that the standard fork as fitted had no steering damper nor any sort of damper fitted to the forks it would make a lot of sense to improve stability on a racing version by fitting the Druids as shown. I've never had any stability problems with the standard forks but neither have I got any of mine up to 60mph yet.
The saddle is odd. The attachment from the saddle nose back to the down tube is badly bent giving that peculiar nose up attitude. This type of saddle nose mount was used across the Excelsior range for quite a few years so is comparitively easily found. I'm on the lookout myself.
Villiers offered no exhaust system for the Brooklands engine. They catalogued variations of the transverse coffee pot system for all other engines even though these were out of fashion by the late twenties and barely any manufacturer fitted them. The Brooklands can was fashionable sports bike wear by then but they do not work on two strokes. The long straight pipes aren't that good either. The transverse coffee pot is an early and crude version of the modern expansion chamber and makes a surprising difference and to be effective the tail pipe  is usually much shorter than expected.
Finally and I'm being pedantic, the tank transfer is of the type fitted from 1930 on. It doesn't matter but you did ask.
Finally what trouble are you having recommissioning it? What can possibly go wrong with a Villiers engine?
Cheers,

[cardan]

The only picture I have so far of the bike in its heyday is the one I posted recently in another discussion http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3567.0 , which shows Harry Butler on the bike after setting the initial records. The "square" line of the exhausts is very similar to the original 1929 pipes, as is the overall look of the bike. But then, maybe the restorer had this photo to work with. Yes the fins on the head and barrel look pretty weird, but you are looking at a pretty original Villiers equivalent of a double knocker works Norton!

Now 33d6 - if you are shedding a tear at the photo of the bike, I'm not sure what your reaction would have been when I started it up for the first time. (The first time for me, and likely the first time for 20-30 years.)  That sound! Ripping calico? A cammy Norton on the pipe? Unreal. I'm not sure what the neighbours thought, but it's clear that a road run will require muffling of some sort. Perhaps better still was the aftermath: perfect silence and two large-bore pipes smoking in whisps. I could like this little thing!

I was out rallying today, and one of the older club members told me that when the bike was rallied in the 1960s it was banned by the club because it was too noisy. Apparently it used to fly, but the noise and smoke were legendary.

The plan is to do some research around the bike - much info exists, but the verifiable needs to be sorted from the apocryphal - and to get it running, possibly for the road. There might be quite a bit to do. In turning around the top rear fork lug (to put the spindle behind the head stem rather than in front) I was worried by the fork spindles, which seemed to be nickel-plated bolts rather than high tensile spindles. The back brake drum and rear sprocket have a great deal of play on the hub. Spoke tension is all over the place. Tyres are old and hard. I can see the balls inside the rear hub. The front brake anchor is a 1/4" bolt. You know the stuff...

OK: if I want to ride it on the road, what type of exhaust will give me performance, an appropriate period look and a reasonable level of quietness? A coffee pot seems like a good idea (if a bit funny to look at on a 1929 bike), but any idea of design parameters?

Leon

[33d6]

Hi Leon,
You seem to have two issues, your concern with the lightweight nature of the cycle parts and how to quieten the wee beast down without sacrificing performance and preferably enhancing it.
On the cycle part side I have great confidence in Excelsior. They regularly competed in the IoM and won the Lightweight TT in 1929. I think they have their cycle parts fairly spot on even though they may seem a bit light. I think the major cycle part issue on this particular frame is breakage around the head stem. One of mine has been broken there, another owner has the same issue while another of my frames has been neatly boxed in to strengthen it to prevent breakage. This frame is their absolute lightest. It was originally intended for a 147cc engine with 2 speed box so pounding it down the road  50% faster than it was intended to travel could produce trouble.
I'm not bothered about the forks as they are off a larger bike and working well within design parameters.
Now to exhausts.
You can go down the Oxford bag track or I can provide a poor photo of the 1925 Excelsior Ultra Lightweight TT entry showing the exhaust system used then or I can provide a guide on the Super Sports TT coffee pot system offered by the factory. This latter coffee pot system is by far the easiest to make up and is reasonably quiet. I can't really guarantee that the noise level will be lower with Oxford bags or the TT entry style of exhaust.
Can we do this  off forum? I've just tried to upload photos and been told they are too large.
Cheers,
 

[29 excelsior]

I have a 1929 excelsior 250cc villiers with the same front end. I will contact you regarding its fittment
cheers tony

[29 excelsior]

The only picture I have so far of the bike in its heyday is the one I posted recently in another discussion http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3567.0 , which shows Harry Butler on the bike after setting the initial records. The "square" line of the exhausts is very similar to the original 1929 pipes, as is the overall look of the bike. But then, maybe the restorer had this photo to work with. Yes the fins on the head and barrel look pretty weird, but you are looking at a pretty original Villiers equivalent of a double knocker works Norton!

Now 33d6 - if you are shedding a tear at the photo of the bike, I'm not sure what your reaction would have been when I started it up for the first time. (The first time for me, and likely the first time for 20-30 years.)  That sound! Ripping calico? A cammy Norton on the pipe? Unreal. I'm not sure what the neighbours thought, but it's clear that a road run will require muffling of some sort. Perhaps better still was the aftermath: perfect silence and two large-bore pipes smoking in whisps. I could like this little thing!

I was out rallying today, and one of the older club members told me that when the bike was rallied in the 1960s it was banned by the club because it was too noisy. Apparently it used to fly, but the noise and smoke were legendary.

The plan is to do some research around the bike - much info exists, but the verifiable needs to be sorted from the apocryphal - and to get it running, possibly for the road. There might be quite a bit to do. In turning around the top rear fork lug (to put the spindle behind the head stem rather than in front) I was worried by the fork spindles, which seemed to be nickel-plated bolts rather than high tensile spindles. The back brake drum and rear sprocket have a great deal of play on the hub. Spoke tension is all over the place. Tyres are old and hard. I can see the balls inside the rear hub. The front brake anchor is a 1/4" bolt. You know the stuff...

OK: if I want to ride it on the road, what type of exhaust will give me performance, an appropriate period look and a reasonable level of quietness? A coffee pot seems like a good idea (if a bit funny to look at on a 1929 bike), but any idea of design parameters?

Leon

re exhaust's original "road"bikes 1929 were fitted with expansion type mufflers, with the correct volume/ length/ design they should improve performance too the best the engine can perform.
my 1929 villiers has a set, looking original as oiled up they wont rust!!. should quieten it as well.
would be availabvle too recreate engine pipes and expansion chamber and small "fishtail"  silencer's. that will out perform  all other pipes, while appearing original
cheers tony

[29 excelsior]

The only picture I have so far of the bike in its heyday is the one I posted recently in another discussion http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3567.0 , which shows Harry Butler on the bike after setting the initial records. The "square" line of the exhausts is very similar to the original 1929 pipes, as is the overall look of the bike. But then, maybe the restorer had this photo to work with. Yes the fins on the head and barrel look pretty weird, but you are looking at a pretty original Villiers equivalent of a double knocker works Norton!

Now 33d6 - if you are shedding a tear at the photo of the bike, I'm not sure what your reaction would have been when I started it up for the first time. (The first time for me, and likely the first time for 20-30 years.)  That sound! Ripping calico? A cammy Norton on the pipe? Unreal. I'm not sure what the neighbours thought, but it's clear that a road run will require muffling of some sort. Perhaps better still was the aftermath: perfect silence and two large-bore pipes smoking in whisps. I could like this little thing!

I was out rallying today, and one of the older club members told me that when the bike was rallied in the 1960s it was banned by the club because it was too noisy. Apparently it used to fly, but the noise and smoke were legendary.

The plan is to do some research around the bike - much info exists, but the verifiable needs to be sorted from the apocryphal - and to get it running, possibly for the road. There might be quite a bit to do. In turning around the top rear fork lug (to put the spindle behind the head stem rather than in front) I was worried by the fork spindles, which seemed to be nickel-plated bolts rather than high tensile spindles. The back brake drum and rear sprocket have a great deal of play on the hub. Spoke tension is all over the place. Tyres are old and hard. I can see the balls inside the rear hub. The front brake anchor is a 1/4" bolt. You know the stuff...

OK: if I want to ride it on the road, what type of exhaust will give me performance, an appropriate period look and a reasonable level of quietness? A coffee pot seems like a good idea (if a bit funny to look at on a 1929 bike), but any idea of design parameters?

Leon

the top rear fork lug is the same mounting as mine, refer to your original pic the front end has more rake, than you now have. My bike was set up the same, suspension wouldnt work at all.I concluded that the double diamond twin spring forks have a different centre line than the triangle type (pressed or tube) therefore the lengths of the "rockers" are different .
bottom rocker length 3 1/4" standard for triangle forks needs to be lenthened too 3 3/4"  for diamond forks. they now work properly without modifying spindle location and should restore trail and stability. at speeds
have to go now drool is gumming up keyboard.
tony

[cardan]

Thanks everyone for the advice both on and off forum.

I must admit that your little mufflers look nice Tony, and they might be a decent compromise between looks and performance. With the top spindle pivot behind the stem the forks seem better (at least they don't flop when you just wheel the bike around!), but will have to investigate the geometry a little more before it goes on the road/track. The fork spindles have to be seen to also.

I have hit a snag with rebuilding the wheels. The spokes are 12g (about 0.104" - the hubs are drilled nicely to suit and are undamaged), but the nipples, although they have 12g threads, are larger. The flats are 11g, and the dameter of the nipple is 0.225" (5.7mm). The Palmer Joinless rims (WM1 19) are drilled to suit these nipples, and an ordinary 12g nipple looks lost in the larger hole. Does anyone know a source of new "oversize" 12g nipples?

Thanks

Leon

[29 excelsior]

Hi Leon, this is your bike in period
cheers tony

[cardan]

Thanks Tony - yes indeed this is the bike. It was campaigned initially by Harry Butler, but later Wally Wollatt took is over (being smaller in stature) and he raced it through the 1930s. Lenroc (Cornell spelled backwards) had the Triumph agency in the 1930s, and apparently the motor from the Excelsior was used in lightweight Triumph cycle parts on several occasions.
I managed to get the nipples I needed, and have rebuilt both wheels, as well as the clutch (which had been "misunderstood" in the last "restoration"). With rebuilt wheels and new tyres, some adjustment of rim alignment relative to the hubs, and a new set of spacers, the wheels are now in line with the frame - but unfortunately a "woof" in the front forks is now apparent. I have the name of someone local who might be set them straight.
The motor seems to run OK (after a new spark plug of correct reach!), but is unfortunately so noisy that I can't run it in my backyard without disturbing the neighbours for miles around. I'm thinking an outing to a "classic" race meeting might be the way to stretch its legs.
By the way, the bike is not mine... unfortunately.

Leon

[vintage honda]

hi leon,thats a nice bike i like these little two stroke one, heres a pic of a baker brooklands i had, now sold.. 1 owner from new


http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn207/sevenup_photos/brooklands/?action=view&current=baker1.jpg

[cardan]

Mmm... I like the Baker! Looks like a better frame and fork setup than the Excelsior.

I have another reason to be fond of the Baker. I'm writing a history of a local motoring firm (here in Adelaide, South Australia) founded by Vivian Lewis. From 1910 until mid-WW1, F. E. Baker Ltd built motors for Lewis (probably 500+ motors) and after the war Vivian's son Cyril Lewis demobbed in England and went to work for Baker at the Precision Works in Kings Norton, Birmingham. Cyril rode Beardmore Precisions of various shapes and sizes in the classic long distance trials (London to Lands End, London Edinburgh, Colmore Cup...) in 1921, 1922 and 1923 before returning to Adelaide with the Beardmore agency. Amongst keepsakes still in the family are photos of the Beardmore Precision team in the 1923 Junior TT - a couple of the photos are autographed by Harry Bashall who was on the first BP home (in about 14th place, I recall).

Anyway, the Baker is a nice link to the Precision and Beardmore Precision days.

Leon

[mick66]

Hi
I,m not an expert in this field but didn,t the Brooklands motor run in 1929 and 1932 with the rider M Barthe with a pair of "Oxford Bags" exhausts and reach extremley good record speeds

Regards
Mick

[cardan]

Hi Mick,

Yes that's the motor - the top fins, alloy and shrunk (?) onto the cast iron cylinder, are clearly visible in the photo.

As the the cycle parts in your photo, I have no idea. Is this M. Barthe? Do you know what the machine is? Look at the way the weight has been pared down - not a spare ounce! Even the tyres look more like bicycle than motorcycle, and no springing to be seen anywhere. Fantastic.

Leon