NEED ID's FOR 1920s MACHINES

[ihmcallister]

Hi Gang,
I am researching the lives of my grandparents and writing a biography. My grandmother was the 1920s English swimming superstar Hilda James. 1920 Olympic silver medallist and holder of very record 100 yards to 1 mile, plus Thames, Seine long distance reords etc. Prevented from attending the 1924 Olympics by her jealous mother (at age 20 and still a minor!) she turned professional and joined Cunard, cruising for 5 years aboard the luxury liner Carinthia.
Hugh McAllister was a notable Marconi wireless engineer and Cunard officer, making the first ship to shore transmissions to New York from all points around the globe during Carinthia's World Cruise 1926-27. They met aboard the ship and married in 1930, Hilda leaving the sea. Hugh went on to be involved in designing the wireless installations on Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth, and was one of the engineers "kidnapped" aboard when Queen Elizabeth sailed unexpectedly out of the Clyde to the USA in 1940. He went on to the UK Admiralty, and was involved in early radar. After WW2, he designed guidance systems for UK rocket programmes.
Hilda bought a bike ca. 1926, and I have some photos for i.d. if any of you good people have the knowledge, especially if the dates/years match up! She was considered a bit of a tearaway, her parents were deeply religious puritan types and the bike horrified them. She also received a letter from Lady Astor instructing her to cease and desist at once from tearing around the lanes of rural Cheshire in a manner so unbecoming for her sex!
Thanks a lot,
Mac.

[Bomber]

I've heard about your grandmother before, has her story been on TV?

[cardan]

Hi Mac,

KD-1513 is a "Built Like a Bridge" Francis Barnett, just the thing for a sporting lady like your grandma. I suspect it is a couple of years later than your target date of 1926; it's probably a Model 5 (Sports) or Model 9 (Super Sports) from 1928. These bikes had the very popular 172cc Villiers motors.
The other bike has me a bit puzzled for the moment - I think I'm stuck on how much the cylinder looks like a miniature version of a side valve Norton! Even though it has a saddle tank and drum brakes it could easily date from 1926, although it's looking bit tatty in the photo. I wonder was the Fanny B about to replace it?

Leon

[cardan]

Here's an advert for the Francis Barnett, taken from the Motor Cycle in 1928.

Leon

[ihmcallister]

I've heard about your grandmother before, has her story been on TV?

Hi Bomber, The story has not been on TV so far as I am aware. If you ever had cause to look at www.wearecunard.com and put in the search McAllister, you will see a brief history which my parents told Cunard when they were on a cruise a few years ago.

Cheers,
Mac.

[ihmcallister]

Hi Mac,

KD-1513 is a "Built Like a Bridge" Francis Barnett, just the thing for a sporting lady like your grandma. I suspect it is a couple of years later than your target date of 1926; it's probably a Model 5 (Sports) or Model 9 (Super Sports) from 1928. These bikes had the very popular 172cc Villiers motors.
The other bike has me a bit puzzled for the moment - I think I'm stuck on how much the cylinder looks like a miniature version of a side valve Norton! Even though it has a saddle tank and drum brakes it could easily date from 1926, although it's looking bit tatty in the photo. I wonder was the Fanny B about to replace it?

Leon

Hi Leon,

Absolutely excellent, thanks a lot. There is another tiny photo of KD1513 with Hilda and her favourite cousin, who was 9, sitting on it. There is a pencil note on the back saying Sunday 29/7/28, so that would fit nicely. Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Mac.

[R]

The other bike has me a bit puzzled for the moment - I think I'm stuck on how much the cylinder looks like a miniature version of a side valve Norton!

The crankcase is curious in that bike too - raleigh or sturmey archer, with Norton top end - modified to fit.  ??

[cardan]

Yes I'm not sure - but since I don't even recognise the cycle parts (quite a natty saddle tank, Sturmey Archer gearbox and Druid forks with a neat drum front brake that reminds me of ABC) my guess is that someone stole the Norton styling and not the actual part. But of course stranger things have happened! Attached is the photo with the white space trimmed off. I dropped a hint to daughter no. 2 that "Forgotten Bikes of the 1920s" would be a good read, so perhaps the identity of the bike will be revealed after Santa comes in the morning.

Happy Christmas to everyone. (36 C here today - "Christmas in Australia's hot; cold and frosty is what it's not.")

Leon

(Edit: Actually made it to 39 C (102 F) today - more pleasant 26 C tomorrow for the turkey!)

[cardan]

The motor with the Norton-like cylinder is a c1924 2 3/4 h.p. (350cc) Blackburne - the photo below shows one in a Neracar (from the Yesterdays website http://www.yesterdays.nl/neracar-1924-blackburne-p-1618.html )

OEC used this motor, and also had a fetching saddle-style tank around 1924. Even though they advertised Burman gearboxes, I wonder if the bike in the photo might be an OEC-Blackburne from 1924, give or take a year or so.

Leon

[esometisse]

could it be a Coventry-Eagle with JAP engine I wonder? They used the 300 and 350cc engines with Sturmey gearboxes and had this distinctive tank style. Here's a pic but there are others on the web:
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/gallery/coventryeagle/1928-coventry-eagle-300cc-954x570.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/pictures/1928-coventry-eagle-300cc/&usg=__gTVGcKttCfvp3erMDE20LYhwMfw=&h=570&w=954&sz=67&hl=de&start=40&zoom=1&tbnid=7ul7k_Efc7AW1M:&tbnh=115&tbnw=193&ei=0y_4TvmiMIbDswbo_e0N&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcoventry%2Beagle%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D853%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Dimvns&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=455&sig=107565970548664205550&page=3&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:40&tx=125&ty=68

Cheers
Andy

[cardan]

Yes Cov Eagle and others (e.g Francis Barnett) used sylish saddle tanks in the early-mid 20s. Many small manufacturers who offered a JAP motor would also "do" a Blackburne - they were that popular. I'd be pretty certain the motor is Blackburne - likely the 350 but there was a 250 as well that looked almost the same. Maybe Cov Eagle had a Blackburne engined model?

I'm not certain the unknown bike is an OEC (particularly because of the Burman gearbox) but there are a number of similarities. Attached is the only image I could find of a 1924 single cyclinder OEC Blackburne http://cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/oec/OEC-Blackburne_1924_article.htm . This one has the big 4 1/4 h.p. Blackburne, and so is has medium weight Druids unlike the lightweight Druids on the unknown bike. Notice that the tank is not actually a saddle tank - it just looks like one. On both bikes you can just see the top bar of the frame which is recessed into the top of the tank, which fits up from underneath. The oil pump seems to match on both bikes, as does the tool box behind the seat bar, the valanced front guard and the angular rear carrier. Anyway, pretty close. My guess is if we could find an image or description of a 1924 2 3/4 h.p. OEC Blackburne we might find it used a Sturmey Archer gearbox?

Cheers

Leon

[esometisse]

yes I think you are right about the engine being a Blackburne, Leon. The pics are almost identical.

Cheers
Andy

[chaterlea25]

Hi All,
I'm not convinced the engine is Blackburne, for the following reasons
The finning on the bike in question looks flat and smooth between the valves, the Blackburne in the Neracar picture is like the ones I had/have where the finning is rounded around the valve area and recessed between them
If Blackburne the outside flywheel should be visible on the opposite side of the engine either side of the cylinder

The OEC picture depicts the early 3 stud engine, like the one in the current  HB bike thread,
The one piece Blackburne cylinder and head redesign came out in 1924

Regards
John

[cardan]

Hi John,
Some healthy scepticism! I'm going to stick with Blackburne. In the photo we see is almost precisiely side-on (the bike is off the stand, and is leaning to the left) and slightly from the front. The side-on nature of the motor means we don't get to see the "plan" of the cylinder fins (below) except in subtle variation of the light (which I have no difficulty imagining). The slightly front-on aspect of the photo means we only see a bit of the outside flywheel in the gap between the frame, exhaust etc. (Since we are looking slightly down in the Neracar photo the flywheel looks higher - paralax.) 8 fins, widely-spaced valves, circular timing chest, valve lifter at 2 o'clock... perhaps there is another motor with these attributes?
The one-piece side-valve Blackburne cylinder was described as new in September 1922 when Marchant and Handley went long distance record breaking (7 hours/400 miles) at Brooklands on a 60 x 88 - 248 cc OK-Blackburne. I wonder if "our" bike is a 250 or 350?
Cheers
Leon

[chaterlea25]

Hi Cardan,
Yea, I accept your observations and comments
The pic in your post shows the curved nature of the cylinder finning, I have not seen a 3 stud one piece cylinder and head in the "metal" ??
This type is not shown in my Blackburne parts books which show both 3 and 4 stud versions???
On the OEC pic you can see the long studs going up to the head which is the detachable type
I know Blackburne made some ""funny" engines, and that OEC would fit what they could get cheapest (old stock!!)
Blackburne made a peculiar 250 engine for Matchless for the R model (only one year) which had a 4 stud head barrel and a plain bearing  on the driveside
Its impossible to say from the photo what size the engine is, from the photo
unless you can tell if the carb stub is 1" or 11/8" LOL
Nearly all the 4 stud engines I have seen also have an oil pump fitted to the outer timing cover?

Cheers
John