Author Topic: 1962 Model 88; previously 1957 basket case value?  (Read 172468 times)

Offline beng

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #165 on: December 19, 2013, 01:27:55 PM »
Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
 
  My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention. Your posts are rife with errors, contradictions and lacking logic and common sense.
 
  For instance you state:
 
   
It was the scavenge-fed oil supply to the head that was somewhat lacking, the oiling being somewhat intermittent.
This showed up as sometimes rapid wear of cams and cam followers, due to little oil coming down the pushrod tunnels.
And also of rockers and valve guides. It wasn't until the pressure fed oiling to the head for 1964 (was it ?) that this was corrected.
And the real reason for the bigger oil capacity oil pump, since pressure oiling the head would otherwise have taken pressure/volume away from the big ends...


      It was 1966 when Norton switched to plain rocker spindles. They started using the bigger "S" pump in 1961 and did so for five years with the scavenge feed to the head with no problems, so no it was NOT the reason for the bigger capacity oil pump.
 
    Also, since the pressure to the big-ends was not from the scavenge side of the pump how could it take pressure away from them?
 
     If you state that the big problem with early Dominators was lack of oiling to the top, then you contradict yourself by stating that it is silly to worry about putting a cartridge filter in the scavenge return to the oil tank. Since you are such an expert on hydraulics then you know there is a pressure drop across a cartridge style filter, and that would decrease the amount of oil to the top end of the early Dominators, which was always my point. If however as I previously suggested someone makes up for the pressure drop across a cartridge filter by installing some of the same upgrades to the rest of the oiling system that Norton did, then they do not have to worry. They would certainly have to worry if they take your advice to just install parts without thinking though.
 
    Telling people to change their oil more often or that having a washable mesh filter being just as good as a cartridge filter is silly.  A cartridge filter will remove much smaller particles than washable/reusable  mesh filters. The point of upgrading the earlier oil systems to where they can use a cartridge filter is that it offers much better longevity of the crankshaft journals, and also it has been proven to protect the crankshaft journals in the event of an engine component failure that dumps metal particles into the oiling system.
 
     Having dismantled and looked at the crankshafts of many Norton twins, both early Dominators and late Commandos that had cartridge filters over their service life, I know this first hand.
 
     All this information has previously been put up in this thread, but you either did not read it, or your reading comprehension is very low.
 
      I am in this thread to offer good and helpful information about Norton Dominators, you are here doing the exact opposite just so you can flex your ego.
 
     
 
     
 
     

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #166 on: December 19, 2013, 09:41:43 PM »
If you don't like the science Ben, why don't you make up your own version...

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #167 on: December 19, 2013, 09:57:30 PM »
  My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention.

Thats funny !
You've been kicked off all the Norton lists and forums around.
Why, may we ask ?

You and Anna Jeannette on the NOC Forum are like a pair - EVERYTHING comes back to your 650 Nortons, the whole world seems to revolve around them, they get mentioned in EVERY post !!! Everything and everyone else is rubbish.
Thats funny !

Its a shame to spoil this forum with more of the same ?

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #168 on: December 19, 2013, 10:24:34 PM »
     Also, since the pressure to the big-ends was not from the scavenge side of the pump how could it take pressure away from them?
 

Your reading comprehension seems to be low ?

Pressure feeding the head from the FEED SIDE takes oil flow/pressure away from the big ends.
If you missed this bit, then your whole understanding is missing...

Nortons tried this with the 1957/58 Nomads was it, with that odd fitting off the timing cover and the internal pressure relief valve  ???  Did the regular 99 engines have this too ?

Nortons whole history was one of minor contradictions, missed opportunites and backtracking. !?!
If you are not familiar with this, then ???

Seems VERY odd you criticising me for suggesting regular oil changes, if no filter is installed.
(The Norton FACTORY recommended regular oil changes, in THE MANUAL, after all..)
If you don't know that oil filters will work on dommies, then you must have been doing a bit of this yourself ??!!
Hopefully.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:33:53 PM by R »

Offline CaptonZap

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #169 on: December 20, 2013, 04:16:27 PM »
Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?
 
  My point is "R", is that you are not here to help anyone or contribute useful information to the thread, you are here simply to be the center of attention. Your posts are rife with errors, contradictions and lacking logic and common sense.
 
       


I've noticed that those who accuse others of certain motives, seem to have the same motives themselves.
.
CZ

wetdog

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #170 on: December 20, 2013, 06:10:10 PM »
its christmas can we keep it on bikes , maybe kiss and make up , i can see both your points but dont want to get involed and you are both into you nortons

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #171 on: December 20, 2013, 09:58:07 PM »
maybe kiss and make up ,

Not a chance !
Bens posts are full of good stuff, but its the few little errors and half truths that can mislead folks.
And if you point out an error, its the pages of rants misquoting you that are famous. !!
And CZ seems to have nailed it in one, good observation.

A truce maybe, for Xmas though, since you put it so nicely.
Merry Christmas to all and sundy !


Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #172 on: December 24, 2013, 09:51:42 PM »
Merry Christmas to one and all and a happy new year too!

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #173 on: January 09, 2014, 11:39:14 PM »
Happy New Year everyone!

I hope you all made it through the over sized dinners, gallons of beer and wine, spongy puddings, family arguments in all! ;D :o


Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2014, 01:15:31 AM »
I have heeded advice from this forum to great advantage and savings of potentially wasted time and money, I have a great appreciation for the information that has been forthcoming from this thread. I sincerely desire this thread go to the end of my project and stay as a great source of information, in particular for those of us who are getting into Nortons of all types.

factual information is key for newbies starting out and with this in mind I wish to make the following comments without fear of wrecking a great thread and the hope that the stress of last year is behind us all!

I posed a question about Model 88 oil pumps and using six start gears to speed them up.

Ben gave a clear balanced and helpful answer.

R made a statement "Putting bigger gears in the oil pump and spinning it faster gives more VOLUME, not pressure. ?"

There is a question mark inviting a correction.

R's statement is factually incorrect, in that with this particular type of reciprocating engine, increased RPM does in fact increase oil volume and pressure up until the point that either the pump reaches the desired pressure and flow due to the oil gallery dimensions and pressure head required to deliver to the oil tank or the oil bypass/relief valve opens.

Revving an engine from idle up to any higher speed will show and increase in oil pressure on a gauge and by definition also volume, this is evident on almost any engine fitted with a legible gauge fit for purpose.

Adding six start gears to a older slow pump will increase volume and pressure at idle and therefore incrementally up from there in relativity to the engine speed until other factors such as, reaching its maximum flow and pressure capability for the size of the oil galleries, possible cavitation or the relief valve opening occurs. (how much is the debatable element but not so relevant)

Also a garden hose for example, flowing a full hose diameter has some pressure coupled with the volume, indeed if you lift up the hose it will experience an increase in pressure if the volume stays the same, a further increase in volume will cause an increase in pressure. it is possible to have 100psi pressure and 0 flow from an open ended hose if the open end is sufficiently higher than the pump delivering the water. (HEAD)

There are many variables that could be argued all day long provided personalities don't wreck an otherwise helpful thread

Please accept my comments in the spirit I have portrayed.

I am not in any doubt about the hydraulics, I was most concerned with the older smaller pump coping with increased RPM and foaming, both of which have been answered.

Kind Regards

Kiwi


 


Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2014, 06:02:19 AM »
Interesting comments Kiwi, although you appear to have introduced a few new variables, and errors, as well. ?
Your hose example would seem to be somewhat of a magic act - 100 psi AND an open ended hose ??
Its hard to imagine how a Norton could have oil pressure if it has unrestricted flow incorporated anywhere into the oiling system - except in the Pressure Relief Valve, where it acts like a regulator, like you say.

Folks here need to read up on positive displacement type pumps and oiling systems and pressure relief valves.
"Gear pumps are positive displacement (or fixed displacement), meaning they pump a constant amount of fluid for each revolution."
Pressure can ONLY come from restricting the flow.
Of course you get more flow from spinning the pump faster - and if the restriction remains, the pressure will likewise increase.

Nortons had an oil pressure gauge fitted to the earliest Dommies, circa 1950 etc.
It was soon deleted - the low readings scared owners, it was said - although the oiling system was working perfectly.
One of the Norton (Commando) rebuild guys in the US is suggesting on dedicated Norton Forums that oil pressure is largely a product of engine temp - and when they get well warmed up, the pressure can fall back quite considerably.  Still do big miles though, so it isn't necessarily a problem.

We have forgotten perhaps your primary reason for asking this question - you are intending to pressure feed the cylinder head, or not ??  Or this is a feelgood exercise of more oil through the big ends - if some is good, more is gooder.
Were 1960s Nortons known for oiling related problems in the bottom ends, that need to be addressed ??
There is a lot of chat on the NOC Forum about oil pumps and more oil - with some quite widely differing views and results, it must be said.  As the motors got bigger the flow was increased, but thats about the only consensus ?  Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 06:03:52 AM by R »

wetdog

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #176 on: January 10, 2014, 07:20:07 AM »
"Your hose example would seem to be somewhat of a magic act - 100 psi AND an open ended hose ??" ............ head , in barr or psi

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #177 on: January 10, 2014, 08:54:35 AM »
How does a 200+ ft high hose fit anywhere into a Nortons oiling system ...
Or have we missed something obvious ?

Offline Kiwi

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #178 on: January 10, 2014, 09:11:55 AM »
Hi guys I probably could have left out the hose example, however it is correct, if you take a hose up a hill and pump water into it at the bottom you will need pressure to get your water to the top of the hill and that pressure will need to exceed the head. 100ft of head requires 43.31 psi to meet the height, so if you only have say 43 psi you will be able to see the water gets very near the end of the hose but does not come out. www.the engineering toolbox.com

I am not planning to pressure feed the cylinder head and you are correct it is more of the feel good thingy, build the newish engine and give her a bit more oil by only adding the six start gears if it has merritt.

I remain of the belief that increasing the speed of the pump will increase volume and pressure as there are already restrictions in the system so adding more flow will affect pressure from the original setup to what degree is the debatable element.

Thanks for your comments.

Offline R

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Re: 1957 model 88 basket case value?
« Reply #179 on: January 10, 2014, 09:13:56 AM »
BTW, if the pressure relief valve was removed from a Norton, the oil pump would successfully push oil out of a 200+ ft high pipe - gear pumps (with tighter tolerances admittedly) can generate pressures well in excess of 2000 psi.
Nortons pump is somewhat smaller than pumps typically used for this, so the volume would be low.
Somewhat of a red herring thrown into this present discussion ?