Ethanol Petrol Update

[triman65]

This is the latest update on Methanol petrol yet to appear over Here. Let your worse nightmares begin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceW9Nc1hVHU


Mick

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Mick,
I thought "they" had ditched E15 because of the stated factors brought up in the vid?

Cheers

JBW

[triman65]

Who are they???. If you mean this shambles called a government dont hold you breath. 

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Hi,
I will find the data somewhere, but I read trials on E15 had been a really problematic & some re-thinking was being done, trouble is State-side, things can be complicated through perhaps different regional policies, here in the UK , I suppose our Political Masters in Brussels  who will be liable to issue & instruct  policy re E15.

However, if Power-Stations are going to be shut down,  prematurely, through the Carbon Treaty, leaving us exposed to a precarious energy supply balance in the near future & private motorists are the next target to reduce CO2 emissions, then because Motoring groups seem on the whole  ineffective, public protest may be the only way to go.

Very few people seem to be taking Agenda 21 seriously, we should rightly be concerned about pollution & toxicity, but planting more trees & protecting, sensibly, Marine ecosystems, (Biological controls) would help absorb CO2, if this is the root of the problem, I still can't get round the fact that Carbon Dioxide a bi-product of respiration is deemed a pollutant.

There's also evidence that the production of Bio-Fuels is also a contributing factor in World Food price rises.  If fuels for older/historic vehicles become rationed or disappear, what value will they have then?


Remember the promises in 1988, re-Leaded fuel substitutes & their  widespread availability, either way  all you need to do is increase a prohibitive price on anything but E15 & the Market will do the rest.


Cheers

JBW

[wetdog]

"public protest may be the only way to go" ..................... jbw youve found your bottle weldone .. air craft are a majour polutant right where you dont want it , but all we hear are ways of incressing air travel , ethanol in fuel is not a new idea and can be worked round ( if need be )

[bikerbob]

From what I have read here in the Uk  petrol  at the moment has E5 ethanol in it and not all petrol has  it added. It is planned to go to E10 but it will be compulsory for the pumps to carry a warning when they get to that level.  The report commisioned by the government concluded that E10 should not be used in vehicles older than 10 years as it could cause problems with carbs and first generation fuel injection systems. There is quite a bit of info on the FBHVC website that is the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs.

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

From a site discussion|:

To Quote:  UK Situation
"Ethanol is being blended in gasoline up to a maximum of 5% volume, in order to respond to the Government's initiative to promote bio-fuels, with the aim to reduce overall CO2 emissions and enhance energy supply security."

Notice a  recent change in formula," V"- Power, that many people will not be aware about: 
SHELL
"While Shell V-Power in the UK does contain ethanol. We have a legal mandate to blend a certain percentage of our fuels with a bio-component. Shell V-Power represents a significant proportion of our fuel volume in the UK and it is an important contributor in meeting our obligations under this legislation. Blending Ethanol into Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation, our fuels ensures that we meet the target set by the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation* (RTFO)."

USA as far as I know does not have a Nation- wide the the Legal remit* that Europe and the UK does, over the pond things are done differently. State Laws, 2006 Clean AIR Act, EPA & subsequent Legislation combine across the USA to aid ethanol as a replacement component..The Clean Air Act (1990) and Alternative Motor Fuels Act (1988)The Energy Policy Act (2005) The Renewable Fuel Standard Program (RFS September 2006) Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA - 2007)

Problems:
Ethanol is hygroscopic it attracts water to it, this causes phase separation & contamination the more % ethanol the quicker it happens.
Fuel storage & usage has an ever decreasing Life-span, through contamination.
Ethanol is a solvent and therefore attacks and dissolves many materials, including plastics/polymers, rubber and fibreglass!
Water of course is corrosive to ferrous metals,  those metals containing an haematite component / iron!

Also|:
"Ethanol fuel does contain corrosion inhibitors, but we do not know if they will work over months of standing over winter. Keeping the tank full seems best, to minimise the surface exposed to moisture in the air and maximise the volume of fuel the water can disperse into.
Nickel plating seems to be common method of protecting steel from ethanol, although I can see a big demand soon for stainless steel tanks,fuel lines,connectors, filters...etc.  We can only hope that the corrosion inhibitors protect aluminium and brass parts eg carb, float chambers. Anodising aluminium is a potential cure, and nickel plate for brass."
"Corrosion inhibitors will not help polymers so we should keep careful watch for leaking seals,hardened/cracked PI hoses, etc. Fuel tank sealants may also be affected by ethanol, dissolving or coming unstuck, clogging fuel filters."

Ethanol & E85:
Incompatible Substances:
Zinc, Brass, Lead, Aluminium, Terns, (a lead-alloy), Lead-based Solder, Leather, Natural rubber, Polyurethane, cork gasket material, P.V.C, Polyamides, Methyl-Methacrylate plastics, Polyester-bonded Fibreglass, Laminates!

Compatible:
Stainless Steel, Unplated Steel, Bronze, Black Iron, Thermoset Reinforced Fibreglass, Thermoplastic piping, Buna-N, Neoprene Rubber, Polypropylene, Nitrile, Viton, Teflo.

If the ethanol doesn't corrode something on your bike, the water absorbed in it possibly will, if you drink it, it will dissolve the vital organs of the rider too over time!

In fact, probably pissing in your fuel tank will possibly do less harm & probably cost much less too!

Heard the one about as Guy who left his recently purchased Brough Superior, Ģ265,000 next to his illegal still, he still trying to prise the mess off the shed floor!

You would be hard pressed to add something to your fuel which would do more harm.


Cheers


JBW

[wetdog]

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[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Crazy Logic:
Quote:
The problem with using ethanol as fuel in a large-scale way comes down to two primary, related issues:
There's not nearly as much energy in ethanol as there is in gasoline.
Creating significant amounts of energy from food crops would deplete the amount of land available for growing actual food for people to eat. While most experts agree on these two points, they tend to differ in terms of degree. 
USA.
According to Cornell University professor of agriculture David Pimentel, producing ethanol actually creates a net energy loss. According to his calculations, producing corn and processing it into 1 gallon (3.7 liters) of ethanol requires 131,000 BTUs of energy; but 1 gallon of ethanol contains only 77,000 BTUs [source: Health and Energy]. And since farmers are using fossil-fuel-powered equipment to plant, maintain and harvest the corn and are using fossil-fuel-powered machinery to process that corn into ethanol and then, in almost all cases, to ship the product to collection points via fuel-powered transport, the ethanol industry is actually burning large amounts of gasoline to produce this alternative fuel. That ethanol could end up containing less energy than the gasoline consumed to produce it.
Others state the ratio for production is is 1gallon fuel/1.3 gallons ethanol are produced,  but you still have the problem of calorific value and declining MPG in vehicles.

Therefore, if you increase ethanol in fuels, engines will become more expensive to manufacture through material upgrade needs and to offset calorific value losses in the fuel, vehicles will need to be lighter, which can also sometimes, add up to increased production costs.

Alternatively benefits:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/ethanol-facts1.htm
In its current status as a low-percentage fuel additive, the benefits of ethanol are obvious. Since ethanol contains a lot of oxygen in its chemical structure, it burns pretty cleanly. Added in small amounts (typically one part ethanol, nine parts gasoline) to the gasoline that fuels our cars, it reduces greenhouse emissions like carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides. Argonne National Laboratory reports an approximate 10-ton (9.07-metric ton) decrease in greenhouse-gas emissions resulting from the use of ethanol fuel in 2007 alone [source: Biofuels Digest]. A 2006 study in Wisconsin showed 16 percent fewer high-ozone days since the 1994 introduction of 10-90 fuel [source: Ethanol].
The addition of ethanol to the fuel mix also reduces the amount of gasoline we consume when we drive, and any car can run on this 10-90 ethanol mix (called E10), Middle East dependency falls..
The 85-15 ethanol mix (called E85) that only fuels special flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) burns even more cleanly, further reducing the release of harmful gases into the atmosphere that can cause air and water pollution, global warming and smog. But only a relative handful of vehicles can run on this mix -- one in 40 cars as of 2006 [source: Joyce]. It's not commonly stocked in gas stations.

I would say that for the moment, Ethanol is here to stay, the critical point is in what concentration is it going to be marketed, most of the old vehicles were designed for Leaded fuel with no substitution of ethanol and that type of fuel is no longer available, so now we are faced with increasing concentrations of ethanol as an additive, this further complicates the fuel chemistry & solutions to the problems created.

Incidentally piston-engined planes in some areas of the World have fuel supply problems and in the Marine engine world the problem of blended fuels is compounded further.

A mate with an XS1100 had all his engine/ carburettor seals go with the fuel we have now!
Panic?

Cheers


JBW

[wink]

It would appear that if THEY canīt get rid of motorcycles with a direct ban, or pricing them off the roads, THEY will ban the fuel they run on.

[wetdog]

"A mate with an XS1100 had all " ,,,, nothing to do with the age of the seals then ... whats he going to do now . sell the bike . which fuel was to blame and over how many miles are we talking here . i think you mates having you on

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

wetdog,
Why would he have me on?
He uses it nearly every day, through from Spring  to Autumn, I think it happened over Winter & he had to order new seals and carburettor parts, from a Yamaha specialist,  all resistant to the new fuel, the bike has been kept in good order, its not a Rat-bike or anything. You see a lot of riders were using  "V" Power because it was assumed/ put round that there was no ethanol content. An early 80s XS1100 is way younger than many British machines subjected to the new fuel cocktail.
The seals went in the carb' and fuel seeped down into the engine, it was a major strip down for him & quite costly.  This type of damage is not uncommon!

In chemical terms  a  5% or 10% dilution is a massive amount of additive. If you take PPM, parts per million,
10% is equivalent to 100,000 parts ethanol per million & 5% is equivalent to 50,000 parts ethanol per million.

Oh! Sorry I just realised, I know Jack Shit, I wonder what he has to say!


Cheers


JBW

[wetdog]

so the seals lasted from 1980 till 2013 ,,,, and the fuel ruined them ..... what a load of rubbish , i had a xs 1100 and the cv carbs needed rebuilding in the late eightys (poilt mix screws where hard to get i remember ) your mates having you on .. stick to italian mopeds ... and one other thing if i remember right the fuel taps where vacum operated (as was the the ignition ) how did the fuel leak into the engine ? these storys are made up over a pint or two in the pub i think but do not stand if looked at in more detail ..... have you heard the one about the 140 mph t140 ?

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

wetdog,
There isn't anything worth saying to you is there, there's nothing about bikes you do not know about, or any bike you haven't ridden, stripped down or repaired. You are the man to know & to listen to.

Save your vitriol for someone else in the future.

Cheers


JBW

[wetdog]

dont give up its a good laugh , i thought you might tell me more about yourself , i know your young , fit and virial , and dress like a soldier , like bird watching and working with children ? have a selection of bikes inc a k75 , this machine has more rubber parts inside the tank than on any british bike ive ever seen , so dont try ever useing that one again .... maybe we should meet as i know you like face to face action , how will i know its you can you carry a yellow flower ? heres a pic of me (two years old but i have not change apart from a nose ring ) thankyou and see you soon .

now im upset hes gone "Guest" .... was it my picture

ivor bigun