1926 Sun Paragon Restoration

[Braggcreekdean]

Hello.  I am restoring a 1926 Sun Paragon with a Villiers 8C engine and Albion 2 spd transmission.  I know very little about these machines and need some help with the drive train.  The engine and gearbox are in good condition and do not appear to need much work.  However the input sprocket/clutch plate for the transmission is worn and needs replacement.  It has 40 teeth and 12.7 mm chain pitch.  Does anyone know where I can source a new or refurbished part?  I also need a rear wheel drive sprocket .  It has 52 teeth and a 12.7mm chain pitch. Thanks in advance for any ideas.  I am located in Alberta, Canada and very few people here know anything about these vintage British bikes.  Will post pics soon.

[Rex]

If you're hoping for someone Sun Paragon specific you'll probably wait a long time! Sprockets are sprockets though, and easily and cheaply retoothed or replaced. That's a 1/2" pitch chain so you need to know the width to see what you need.
(BTW using metric units for old British bike components is clumsy. Stick to the measurements it was designed in and keep it easy)

[Braggcreekdean]

I believe re-toothing sprockets is a lost art here.  I would be grateful if you could supply a contact in the UK.  I also need a contact for getting the magneto coil re-wound if you have one.  Thank you.

[iansoady]

Retoothing is easy enough and can be done by any competent machine shop. The existing teeth need to be ground / turned off leaving a plain disc. Then a new sprocket with the requisite number / size of teeth can have its centre removed so it is a tight fit on the centre. Lastly the two can be carefully welded together.

[chaterlea25]

Hi
I am not a Villiers nut   
if it has a flywheel magneto  Villiers Services should be able to help ?

http://villiersservices.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=coil

John

[33d6]

I play with this stuff on a regular basis. My favourite ride for many years was an Excelsior with 8C and 2 speed Albion. Exactly the same set up as yours. I've upgraded now to a 175 Sport, still with 2 speed Albion. Sprockets and chain have never been a bother as blank sprockets of all sizes are freely available off the shelf. All it requires is a competent machine shop to do the final machining.
Originally I went to the chain supplier (Renolds) to buy the correct original size chain. They advised who made their sprockets for them and I approached them. Problem solved. No re toothing, no turning off old teeth, no welding just new and perfect sprockets at a cheaper price than that quoted for the re toothing exercise.
Since then I've gone on to source my own sprockets as its cheaper still if you take the blanks in with you when approaching a machine shop. I've also learnt that the clearances twixt sprocket and gear box suit only the original size chain. Modern chain of nominally the same size is slightly wider and heavier and chops lumps off the gearbox.
As an aside I'm Australian. If this is possible in Australia you can be sure it is done in Canada.
The earlier advice to approach Villiers Service about the clutch sprocket and coil is absolutely spot on.
Finally, of course no one in Canada knows anything about your bike. It's the same everywhere with vintage Villiers powered bikes. You aren't alone there. But there are a few of us who actually ride the things and cheerfully swap experiences.
Cheers,

[Braggcreekdean]

Thanks very much for the advice gentlemen.  Villiers Services does indeed have the ignition coil I need.   I will let you know how I get on with the sprockets.  I promised pics but cannot seem to upload successfully at my present internet speed.  Pls stand by.  Cheers.

[R]

If you can't readily locate anyone to do the sprocket work, check in your local farming communities who supplies chain and sprockets to them, and enquire with them for good machining services.

Farming machinery, harvesters in particular are full of chains and sprockets, and the prices of some of them are murder - so machining services to retooth sprockets do a thriving business.

[Braggcreekdean]

I went down to our local Auto/farm discount store and found sprocket blanks for the crank, clutch and rear sprockets.  Cheap!  The welding shop that I use to repair other motorcycle stuff (like my broken KTM 990 sub-frame!).  Will be able to cut and weld everything together.  Thanks again for the ideas.

[Tj501]

I play with this stuff on a regular basis. My favourite ride for many years was an Excelsior with 8C and 2 speed Albion. Exactly the same set up as yours. I've upgraded now to a 175 Sport, still with 2 speed Albion. Sprockets and chain have never been a bother as blank sprockets of all sizes are freely available off the shelf. All it requires is a competent machine shop to do the final machining.
Originally I went to the chain supplier (Renolds) to buy the correct original size chain. They advised who made their sprockets for them and I approached them. Problem solved. No re toothing, no turning off old teeth, no welding just new and perfect sprockets at a cheaper price than that quoted for the re toothing exercise.
Since then I've gone on to source my own sprockets as its cheaper still if you take the blanks in with you when approaching a machine shop. I've also learnt that the clearances twixt sprocket and gear box suit only the original size chain. Modern chain of nominally the same size is slightly wider and heavier and chops lumps off the gearbox.
As an aside I'm Australian. If this is possible in Australia you can be sure it is done in Canada.
The earlier advice to approach Villiers Service about the clutch sprocket and coil is absolutely spot on.
Finally, of course no one in Canada knows anything about your bike. It's the same everywhere with vintage Villiers powered bikes. You aren't alone there. But there are a few of us who actually ride the things and cheerfully swap experiences.
Cheers,

I'm also in Australia and need sprockets for my early '30s Raleigh and was heading down the retoothing route until I read this post. Can you share who made your sprockets for you?

[33d6]

Of course I'll share but it probably won't be as much help as you hope. Firstly, where do you live? I live in Melbourne. Saying what local firm I use isn't much help if you live in another State.
Secondly, before you start doing anything you have to decide what size chain you are going to use. Due to space considerations on my Albion gearboxes I restricted myself to the original size chain made by Renolds. Modern chain of nominally the same size is in fact slightly bigger in all dimensions. At first Renolds were very easy. Renolds Australian distribution warehouse is only a 15 minute drive away and they sold single bike lengths of chain direct to the public. They were very instructive, very helpful and I learnt a lot. Over the years they closed this retail side and have become more and more difficult to deal with. I now know the game well enough for this not to hinder me but I would no longer automatically go to Renolds. 
I would strongly suggest you approach Transmission Australia, toll free number 1300 139 102 and get a copy of their General Power Transmission Catalogue. That lists all their sprocket blanks and chains with all relevant dimensions. You will learn a lot and know what you are after. They have depots in each State except NT. I would expect them to also know which local engineering firms machine their blanks to suit individual jobs. They also have a website, www.transaus.com.au
Hope this helps

[Tj501]

Thanks for the reply. A modern 420 chain fits the primary and final drive sprockets I have but they're quite worn. I've checked the clearances and the 420 isn't going to give me any trouble on the Sturmey Archer Gearbox.
I'm in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne - Reynolds from memory are near Waverley Park which is pretty local for me - so name the name of your supplier would be ideal for me. Cheers!

[33d6]

Hi Tj501,
Three things,
Firstly, if you can fit 420 chain on your current sprockets they aren't just quite worn, they're absolutely cactus. They need replacement.

Secondly, the firm Renolds recommended to get sprockets made was L&M Sprockets in Manton Rd, South Oakleigh. They're right at the very western end of Manton Rd.
Over the years they have made me Villiers engine sprockets, Albion gearbox sprockets and various rear wheel sprockets. I've been happy with them all. It would be two years or so since last I used them. Go and have a talk with them. Show them what you want to replace. Take the sleeve gear out of the gear box and take that so they can ensure the gearbox sprocket is a perfect fit.

Thirdly, if there is room for 420 chain, use it. Don't even think of using any of the old imperial size chain. I only stuck with it because of space issues. It is otherwise a nuisance.

Finally, I always made a point of paying cash on the spot with no receipt. This made sure there was no paper trail to accidentally appear in the domestic accounts. There are some things swmbo doesn't ever need to know. Even if she is happy about it, it will be remembered at an inconvenient time.
Cheers,

[Tj501]

Excellent advice all round. Thanks!

[Rex]

There are some things swmbo doesn't ever need to know. Even if she is happy about it, it will be remembered at an inconvenient time.

I thought just mine had that mental attribute....clearly not!