Monet Goyon Identification

[john.k]

The JAP 500 and 600 singles ex rotavators generallly have a mounting flange around the drive side crankcase......The ones that are nearly pure motorbike engine are the ones from Autotrucks,both 600s and 750 s,the 1000cc ones from Lister rail trolleys,and the starting engines that were commonly found on portable air compressors.Lister trucks had JAP engines almost exclusively(a few SA s) up until 1962,when the Lister family sold out to Hawker Siddely.......the autotruck era was over by then anyway.Ive seen claims that Listers sold nearly 3/4 million autotrucks......thats a lot of JAPs....Air compressors with Dorman and Ruston engines always had Jap starting engines.....And recently I found the bits to refit a JAP engine to a compressor ,so it could be restored.....They even have Amal slide carbies with a twist grip and advance for the BTH mag on the lever that engages the clutch to the pinion...A few chugs ,and a big 6 cyl diesel fires up....The roller bearing in JAPs suffer from brinelling due to vibration .

[mowbar]

Sorry old chap, this bike is a lash up, that engine is out of a lawnmower or some other industrial application.
If you look at the engine plates you will see there is an extra hole sticking out of the front, a sure sign that engine is not out that frame.
I have seen this  kind of set up before.
The carb position is all wrong, and I'm unhappy about the gearbox and the way it is fitted.

Did I ask if it was ever registered in Ireland?

On the head-stock, and as is common to most bikes on the continong, you  should have a small plate on which are stamped various details about the bike,  model, engine size, date of manufacture and so on. Is there one?

It may even have started life as a Kohler-Escoffier, sister to Monet Goyon, like AJS/Matchless.

Time to make a hard decision I think, but FFS, do not spend any money on it,cut your losses.

plate will look similar to this  https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Plaque-de-cadre-moto-Peugeot-/173502648382?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l44720

or  http://guigui-monetgoyons6vu.blogspot.com/2014/02/plaque-de-cadre.html

and here is a site covering Monet Goyon two strokes for you to look over.

http://www.monet-goyon.net/2tempsAVG.html

I might be wrong about that extra hole, seems to be one on these, so far type ZA2 1931 look close to what yours is meant to be.

according to the Villiers website the engine is definitely designed for a motorcycle and made for 1 year only a 247cc, it has a Monet Goyon brass badge on the front but nothing else written on it, the only other thing is the number 38082

[mini-me]

Villiers engines are notoriously difficult to date, so many variations of the same unit for different purposes. Also Villiers engines were made under license in France.

Is this Monet Goyon plate on the engine or the frame, likewise where is the number to be found?

That brass elbow which the carb is on is definitely not right, carb would be facing forwards, and it would look less industrial.

To be sure of the capacity you'd need to measure the bore size.

Where is the Villiers site you referred to?


The only engine of your type I can find in a quick search 

In September 1922 Villiers announced the details of their new 1923 engine range,[9] which included 147 cc, 250 cc and 343 cc engines. These engines featured a radial finned cylinder head, with both the inlet and exhaust port being at the front of the engine, and they all had the Villiers flywheel-magneto. While the 147 cc relied on petrol-oil mixture for crankshaft lubrication, the two larger engines used a separate oil feed system. The new 250 cc engine produced 25 per cent more power than the older 269 cc engine.

[/i]
So you could even have a 300cc unit.  I still think your engine is older than the bike and the bike is a mix of parts. My long experience of french bikes makes me 80% certain. during the war years parts were not available and Adolfs scrap metal merchants did a through job of clearing France of old vehicles.
I have seen some mongrelised bikes over there you'd barely credit, the French are very reluctant to let any decent pre war bike go out of France, more so now that its near impossible to get one registered without its original paperwork.




More better. more detailed and clearer pics needed from you to get much further.

[iansoady]

Hi All,
Going OT here somewhat

I visited the so called "National motorcycle museum" in USA a couple of weeks age where I saw a JAP 600 industrial engine labelled "JAP from the Teens", (it was more than likely ex Howard Gem rotovator as it was identical to one I have) .. The person in charge was happy to take note of the correction I offered   

John

Many years ago when I worked as an agricultural machine fitter (no not HDs) Howard Gems were my favourite job - especially as they paid standard bonus as they'd never been timed so I could spend as long as I liked on them......

[mini-me]

I have lost count of the number of blobber/crapper/custom/board tracker /steam punk rubbish offered  by the pig ignorant on ebay with some  industrial JAP/Villiers/Sturmey Archer engine shoe horned into some butchered frame and cycle parts.

Even Norton side-valve  engines got press ganged into industrial three wheelers and delivery vans.

Next time someone comes in here with this exported french  two stroke scrap I am going to try very hard to ignore it, does my blood pressure no good at all.

[mowbar]

the brass plate is on the front forks the number is stamped into the frame above the gearbox.
http://www.ahmrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/36-villiers-engines-part-1.pdf
my engine has Mark V11 A cast into it and as far as I can tell made in 1924/25

[mini-me]

You cannot make the fact fit a fake, no matter how hard you try.

Ok lets accept your engine is dated 1924/5 yet you reckon you bike is possibly 1930-ish, I'll ignore my idea  the bike is much later than that,so why would the maker fit an engine 5yrs out of date?

A Monet Goyon of 1925 and that engine had belt drive, and did not have a saddle tank.

Accept that Villiers engines were widely used in all sorts of applications, not just bikes, and you have made an expensive mistake, much the same as many of us on here have done in the past.

I can't help you any more.

[iansoady]

Even Norton side-valve  engines got press ganged into industrial three wheelers and delivery vans.

Not to mention the Norton Trusty tractor which was a Big 4 IIRC.

[friday]

get in contact with monet owners uk or villiers stationary motor group of some sort to narrow things down and cross reference . try find out what it isnt . compare frame castings etc
or compile info and sell bike as is

when the guy said "racing" would that be endurance or ulster ?  yes I am serious ... I know nothing about french bikes , french 2 strokes or french 2 stroke racers
Im just be relieved I didnt buy it . I dont buy anything unless I can see a faint "Brough" on the tank or faded "E . P " under the seat

[mini-me]

monet owners uk

There is no such thing; there is not even a dedicated M-G club in france; their bike clubs tend to be regional.

hen the guy said "racing" would that be endurance or ulster ?  yes I am serious ... I know nothing about french bikes

That is obvious I'm afraid.

Im just be relieved I didnt buy it

you got that right at least.
I am guessing you are not in the Uk??

I like french bikes of the inter war years and even some of the 1950s, I have had a few.

Some of them had a lot going for them, big section tyres, bigger brakes, proper bearings in the wheels, electric lights as standard when we still had gas as an option; castings tended to have wider joint faces so oil tight; unit construction  and so on.
But their metallurgy lagged  behind ours.
Very innovative designs, lots of four cylinder bikes some of which got to the production stage.
Quirky styling and colour schemes, not everyone's taste here.

But, you need to be au fait with french history of the 1930s; the french govt and insurance co., conspired against two wheels which is why the emphasis was on cheap lightweight low powered runabouts.
1940 stuffed the rest till 1944 and the 1950s were not a prosperous time in France especially in the very rural parts which provides the Barns and cellars these rubbish botched incomplete bikes tend to be unearthed from.

Add to that this tendency of the newbies to think every pile of junk has been cherished and kept 'original'  for 50 or more years and you have a recipe for disappointment.

If only they'd asked around for opinions before they buy, they'd get to enjoy their old bikes. And not throw money down the drain.

If that bike was ever a racer I got a date with kelly Brooks tomorrow; the bloke whispering in the OPs ear at that auction had been snogging the Blarney stone.

Almost every french bike that pops up on here has been an incomplete wreck.

[friday]

 lol go easy on the blood presure , garlic supposed to be good for that.

 wasnt there 2 stroke class racing ? ......(call it going off topic) . Im thinking Scott flying squirrel
not Monet Goya .

y never know we might get you there yet with this Kelly Brooks . forget the garlic gonna need more than that

[Rex]

As far as I'm aware in the era when Scott competed in races (pre-war) they weren't given any concession for being two-strokes and both engine types raced together.
Little French commuter two-strokes are as different from virtually hand-built to order Scotts as it's possible to be.

[mini-me]

wasnt there 2 stroke class racing ? ......(call it going off topic) . Im thinking Scott flying squirrel
not Monet Goya .

.
Ask your  doctor to up your meds.

The depth of your ignorance about motorcycle history is bottomless..

[TGR90B]

That is no way for one advanced member to opine on a fellow advanced member.

[friday]

come on , Im laughing . hands up who thinks of Franch when they think of a Motorcycle ?

DONT let motorcycles upset ya . I think the OP has slinked away . poor buggers probably too scared . at least he admitted he bought the thing .
 
no one noticed my "Monet Goya" thing , like a painting ....... no

in usa theres an amca judge who reels info on indians fairly regularly , usually hes wrong but hes still an amca judge .