Author Topic: Timing cover leak  (Read 641 times)

Offline Oggers

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Timing cover leak
« on: May 16, 2022, 03:36:58 PM »
As well as a small leak from the kickstart housing, I appear to have a slightly more severe weep from the bottom of the timing cover. I have since removed the cover, cleaned up the mating surfaces, and replaced the very thin gasket with a thicker one cut from flexitallic fibre sheet - about 1mm thick - along with a smear of Wellseal both sides. However, I have since found that one of the 3/16 screws - one at around 7 o clock - near the base of the cover where the leak was - does not tighten, indicating that the thread is stripped within. Another PO bodge had been made with some PTFE wrapped around the existing screw. The cover looks a much tighter fit and it is quite possible that the other screws will be adequate, but any thoughts as to what could be done here? I am well aware of helicoils, but anything else a little simpler - and at the risk of another bodge - a self tapper perhaps? just to obtain a bit of a clamping force in the vicinity.

Many thanks 

 

Offline iansoady

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2022, 03:55:50 PM »
Whatever you do, don't use a self tapper as it will make sorting it out later much harder. I would use a helicoil (or similar).
Ian
1952 Norton ES2

Offline Oggers

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2022, 04:20:14 PM »
Ian

Yes appreciate the comment. I'll run it and see if it leaks again. If so, helicoil perhaps. Can you obtain such a small helicoil?
What about re-tapping thread perhaps?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 04:22:20 PM by Oggers »

Offline 33d6

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2022, 02:27:18 AM »
Your repair alternatives will largely depend on how much 'meat' there is surrounding the stripped thread. Is there enough remaining metal to safely install an insert? There are various tyles and types of thread repair inserts, "helicoil" is just the common term to cover a variety of methods.
You say the scrrew is 3/16" diameter but don't mention how many tpi.  Absolutely no bother getting inserts down to 3/16". They are available in much smaller diameter than that. Your main concern is what thread type?
Installing an insert is quick and easy. The trick lies in fitting the right one first time.

Good luck,



 

Offline iansoady

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2022, 10:59:18 AM »
I'd use a helicoil type rather than timesert or similar as there isn't a lot of meat round there (from memory).
Ian
1952 Norton ES2

Offline Rex

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2022, 06:25:38 PM »
Me too. Small Helicoil kits are cheap enough on Ebay, but 3/16 sounds small. From memory those screws are 1/4 BSF and that is (or certainly was) a common Helicoil size.

Offline Oggers

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2022, 08:17:25 AM »
Gents

Thanks for all the advice. The thicker gasket and the other screws appear to be sealing things. I cannot feel any trace of oil at the base of the cover after a run so here's hoping the thicker gasket has worked. Naturally I now appear to have drips from the pressed steel chaincase - and therein is a whole other story of course! Quite why such a prestigous marque as Velocette went with that deeply flawed design is beyond me!   

Offline iansoady

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 10:12:48 AM »
Hence the common saying "You have to be an engineer to own a Velo". Actually, I agree there is quite a lot to be desired in a number of areas - but they are very  nice bikes to ride and are very pretty. I think they're overpriced for what they are.
Ian
1952 Norton ES2

Offline 33d6

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2022, 10:29:11 AM »
Iím shocked Oggers. Donít you know those subtle oil leaks you complain about are a classic example of the BART preservation system in action? It was practiced across the whole industry with varied success but all factories employed it.

Youíve not heard of BART? That famed British Anti Rust Treatment process? Have you ever known of any British bike to have rust problems in itís underpinnings? Or any problems with winter salt on those parts protected by the BART? I would suggest you examine your bike much more closely and consider how you could expand the whole BART process  with a judicious loose screw or two or possibly a torn or misapplied gasket here and there.

Cheers,

Offline Oggers

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2022, 10:59:07 AM »
Ian

I am an engineer, and in my humble opinion, a pressed steel chaincase which is liable to warping and made in two halves to hold lovely permeating warm oil is about as far from sound engineering practice as a chocolate teacup. Yes Velos are pretty, nice to ride, and the engine is remarkable for a single, but in some other respects, a little flawed. Mind, I had a Matchless G9 which leaked oil like the Exxon Valdez. Dynamo seal, chaincase, head, bottom end, to name but a few points of hydrocarbon incontinence. Eventually I just gave up on it and sold it....

My 46 Ariel VB600 has - as far as I know -  not leaked at all in 8 years of ownership. Superb old SV thumper. Pig to start sometimes though....         
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 04:32:55 PM by Oggers »

Offline Rex

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 04:34:55 PM »
"Sound engineering practice" is usually tempered with "but we need to make a profit though".
Tin primary covers have leaked oil ever since the first ham-fisted tw*t over-tightened the screws and produced localised high spots in the cover, meaning that every other ham-fisted tw*t since thinks he needs to whang up the torque even more to get it oil-tight.
Worth bearing in mind though that it (and the bike) have survived far longer than the makers ever intended, and that bikes' ability to not leak oil wasn't an over-riding and essential quality 50/50/70 years ago.
Rather like the dummies who love the "Lucas Prince of Darkness" jokes and never fail to trot them out when electrical failure has happened (even 60+ years later) all these designs are well-past their sell-by date and most recognise that there's no comparison with current products.

Offline 33d6

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2022, 02:57:40 AM »
Isnít that why we love and rideíem?   ďThereís no comparison with modern products.Ē

I ride ancient stuff because it provides an experience that modern and efficient stuff doesnít. Sometimes that experience isnít to my expectations but the more I know them the less that happens.

Cheers,

Offline Rex

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2022, 08:37:04 AM »
It's certainly why I love 'em, anyway.
If I wanted total reliability, oil integrity and all the other stuff modern riders take for granted, I'd buy another Kawasaki, just as I did when I needed a daily pounder for work for decades.
As various philosophers seem to have said, it's the journey not the destination for me now.

Offline Oggers

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2022, 11:34:07 AM »
I am not convinced that poor design such as a pressed steel chaincase can be forgiven on the altar of misty eyed nostalgia. The Ariel has cast covers, proper gaskets and adequate fixing screws around the peripheries, and most Ariels are pretty basic workmanlike machines and priced accordingly.  As far as I know it has never leaked oil - despite me removing/replacing them several times.

I agree that other traits of old classics are about the experience and the delight in riding and maintaining such venerable machinery, but for me, the pressed steel chaincase is a poor design rather than a mere characteristic or foible, and one is left with incessantly trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.     

Offline iansoady

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Re: Timing cover leak
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 11:40:34 AM »
I think one problem is that Velocette were always on the margin of viability and like Norton spent a huge amount on the racing machines. Although this meant that much good stuff did percolate down to the bread and butter bikes it also had the result of limiting investment. The Velo clutch, for example is just a refined / bodged (take your pick) of the original which was fitted to a lowly 2 stroke.

The persistence in running the final drive outside the primary, although having some racing advantage in giving a narrow stiff crankcase and ease in changing final drive ratios, was not that useful to the road rider and indeed given the number of people unable to read and understand the manual led to incessant problems with clutch adjustment. You only have to join the Velo "forum" to see a lot of new owners struggling..... https://velocette.groups.io/g/main/topics
Ian
1952 Norton ES2