1962 Model 88; previously 1957 basket case value?

[R]

Slimline Nortons in the early 1960s had a choice of a number of colors in the brochures - black and what is described as "dove grey" but is really a pale cream color, and red and dove grey, green and dove grey and blue and dove grey. While in theory each of these color choices were limited to a few specific models, apparently the factory would paint any bike any color if requested - and you could wait. Bit tricky with export bikes, of course.  Didn't take long before silver tanks and chromed guards came along, along with other chromed bits.

By the time it got into the Commando era, quite a range of colors was available, including some big chunky metalflake options.

Those 'Norton' slimline tank badges can be hard to find - they are chomed diecast (zinc), and tend to deteriorate and crumble with age.
Decals make a fair substitute until you find a good set, if you didn't get any ?

[Rex]

Kiwi,
Drab greys and greens were often used, because there was a dearth of this colour after the War, so the factories saved money buying the paint  at cheap rates.

I think that's taking the "we were so poor..."  a  bit too far. Those colours were used because they were considered fashionable at the time, just as clothes, house paint colours, etc were similarly drab (to our eyes).
Styles change, different markets open up and so paint schemes changed.

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

To an extent....
I disagree Rex,  post-war ,the factories were stretched,  they were not allowed to finish parts off in bright metals because of government restrictions, everything was calculated down to the last half-penny, you only have to read what Hopwood & Irving were writing at the time.  OK, the further we get from WW2, the less chance of a drab paint job, but ex- WD supply paint was a penny pinching saver, brighter colours costs more to purchase.  The only other thing that  is in their favour, (greys & greens), is it is a recognised fact that drab colours  age better that bright ones in the sun/weather, your forgetting Rex, you were watching a black & white telly & this distorts our memories of the colour spectrum!

Every penny saved went into Norton's race efforts, did you see a drab Factory racer? No!

The only reason also in fashion, that there was not as much colour, is that clothes costs more about this time, if you start using exotic coloured fabrics!  A grey pairs of bloomers would have been a right turn-on!

Orwell, wouldn't have written 1984 if his Vincent had been a brighter colour!  By the way, have you seen the old film 1984,  made in 1956, I think, with all the  D series enclosed Vincent motorcycles used by the Security Forces, of Big Brother, catch it on YouTube!

Cheers


John

[Kiwi]

R- I did get the die cast tank Badges and they look in quite good condition, just need re-chrome.

As to Paint; I am aware from some involvement with restoration and paint work for vintage car clubs and others that immediately post war there was still a "you can have any colour you like as long as it is what we give you" approach, this was partially due to "war" stock and availability.

Re-constituting large quantities of colours already made for war machinery was not possible and management would not or could not just throw anything away especially after what had gone on.

Mixing existing paint colours would have given a pretty standard Poo brown. It is fair to say the old paint had to be used up and there would have been a hugely disproportionate amount of those war colours compared to a normal war free era this would have included Black and White.

Paint in significant part included large quantities of lead and chromates and I believe this had a big baring on availability until nearing the 50's and then it seamed to be a long time before public demand for vibrant colours caused manufactures to change . on top of all this JBW has a point, Pigment was hard to get and expensive (still is expensive) although I don't think UV had such an effect in those days.

UV has become an issue for two main reasons, the UV became stronger into the 70's and beyond, paint technology was forced to change away from lead and chromates which were champion at UV resistance but rather lethal. The new paint products struggled to defend against UV in their early development years and they were being developed from the early the sixties in some Countries (there is a whole raft of variances due to different Countries policy etc).

All in all it is a very subjective and mostly circular discussion. 

Putting my old WWII helmet on now in anticipation of a response....

Cheers   

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Hi,
The mystery with this site is, I post early morning before doing work &" husbandly duties", a phrase picked up from the native "Kentings", I now live with/ in the County & the post appears on the site and says 11.04am? Does this just happen on Mondays?
The British factories,from what I have read/gleaned talking to others, were unfortunately slow to respond, Norton in particular, Primary Chain Case, inadequate Final Drive Chain, I suspect this was due to " dyed in the wool" Management attitudes and the Accountants, being held to account!  One thing  that didn't help, was the Americans passing Legislation moving the gear change to the left-hand side of the machine, (sometime in the 70s I think), duh! a supposedly safety issue, however in the 80s, I coped with having a Honda & a BSA on the road at the same time, ( where have all the good times gone?), I had no problems & I am cack-handed!

Incidentally, when riding both bikes on the same day, as a direct comparison,  I believe, WE for once had it right, I personally always felt that having the front-handlebar brake on the right and the rear foot- brake on the left was a far better balanced & safer arrangement, when in motion, riding & so did the Italians in the early days, does the brake lever effect the rider that much, when stationary ?  After all riding on he Right was a  Anti-British or were we Anti-French, political gesture wasn't it & riding on the wrong side, sorry I mean on the right side of the road, (Freudian slip there) was an early schism in the way things were done!


Paint's a bugbear and a constant irritation to me personally!  The Morris Minor is a good case to point in how colours weather.

As for paints , we are now faced with paints that do not do what they say on the tin, Lead-based paints, Marine  Zinc-based Anti-Fouling paints were  all out-lawed, then cellulose- based  Automotive paints, I live in a seaside town so I have first-hand knowledge of corrosion. And finally the corner-stone of the Home restorer, Finnigan'sHammerite was taken over by ICI & they will not tell you what's in it, because I rang them up in Teeside and it was a very evasive in giving  answers  to my questioning and it, (new  Hammerite) doesn't seem to resist petro-chemicals any more, so WE need some input on paints, the best and where to get old supplies from, which work as a protective coat.

Because, I wasted my time painting and trying to lacquer a K75, through the inter-reactivity of the base paints and the unwillingness of the paints to protect my investment and not resist unleaded!


Cheers


John

[wink]

I painted cars in the last century and brought all my left over cellulose, 2 pack, acrylic, etc with me to spain. built a concrete shed in the shade BUT in 25 years many tins have burst with the 44C temperature . If I had lined the walls with canvases I could have sold them as modern art. What primer can I buy today that will take cellulose? Enamel coachpaint is still usable and I  paint toy cars with it.

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Let me research it!

Cheers

JBW

[Kiwi]

Hello Gents

I have been out of town for a few days, I note your interest in better coatings, I can tell you a few things about paint coatings, the chemical structure and performance/limitations.

JBW I see you live near the ocean and I see Wink has 44c temps to deal with.

My first comment with paint sounds like a caveat but in reality it is just how it is; when it comes to paint and premature failure the answer to your problems always starts with an "It  depends".

I am not a chemist or laboratory technician, I have simply been involved in the protective coatings industry with my own company for the last 30 years or so, my company in New Zealand was supplying abrasive blasting and industrial coatings to many heavy industrial factories, power stations, hydro and Geothermal, not to leave out the forestry industry, Timber mills and processing plants, Volcanic environments and coastal sites.  Along with the fore-mentioned my own factory had many vintage car,truck and motorcycle parts go through our blasting and painting process. I have a fair knowledge of aviation specialist coatings and am very familiar with all abrasive blast media and its application from structural steel to aircraft components.

I had good results over the years with industrial coatings that we cross linked from the heavy industry into automotive, There are many many scenarios and factors that influence the paint you buy and the application technique you use not withstanding the dreaded premature failure or seemingly unexplainable failure for no apparent reason.

Over the years I have done inspection and remedial repair work on various coating failures and have close ties with some coating manufacturers. I am now based in Australia setting up a new company doing the same kind of work but more involved in Automotive transport refinishing. We are one of the few companies who apply industrial coatings to certain automotive applications

Without getting any more long winded I have stated my background solely to establish some security to any advice I may try to give if you are interested in my comments, it may seem strange that I would say this but it is much easier to assist if I can with some helpful comments relating to specific questions. This forum has been very helpful to me and I would enjoy giving something back as time allows.

I have looked at a few forums relating to paint issues with application in the Automotive sector to see if I could point you in a direction that would be helpful, however due to many posts being trial and error based advice I think it unwise to get you to follow them.

So firstly Wink, Nitro Cellulose is quite moisture sensitive like car bog/filler so if you got 25 years out of some tins you have done 23 years better than its expiry date, but to answer your question the latest acrylic enamels (2k) that replaced the Cellulose are now excellent products for toys etc and the primer used for them is usually referred to as a 1k primer, obviously both of these are two pack and quite expensive especially for small mixes. Cellulose will bond to 1k primer. If you could be a little more specific about your batch mixing sizes and the substrates your toys etc are made from I may be able to give you base paint compounds that would help you find the right supplier and not the most expensive one.



JBW, the sea side does create a few issues but to be honest the most likely problem if you are experiencing premature failure will be in the preparation, application and environmental effects during the process.

I do want to be sure you gents want this kind of comment from me and if you might find my rabbiting on helpful? So If you could give me specific scenarios you are having problems with I am happy to comment.

I do know painting can get personal so I invite your questions rather than run off at the mouth to soon.

Kind Regards

Kiwi

   

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Kiwi,
Any information would be useful, we can open up a new thread soon about paints!


Many thanks

[Kiwi]

OK JBW, I will set down some do's and don't s 101 and start a new thread soon. It would be very helpful if you could name usual paint suppliers in the UK or where ever so I can cross reference to them where possible as there are so many suppliers in the world selling the same generic paints under different banners.

Cheers

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Kiwi,
OK! I will find out what I can, trouble is these days they keep selling companies off to new, often hidden ownership, until you do some digging round, you do not know who owns what!

Cheers


JBW!

[Kiwi]

Yes JBW you are so right! just find me the paint name and its type IE; 1k, 2k, epoxy, vinyl etch, poly urethane, aliphatic urethane, alkyd, and so on. Tell me what the brand names are and what you need to paint so I can relate to them in discussion.

I can send a list of generics that your paint supplier would know how to compare with their own. but mostly I think the best help I can be is in the preparation and application coupled with film builds etc.

Then just bombard me with questions and I will try to answer them!

[Kiwi]

JBW Have you heard of W&J Leigh & Co (Leigh Paints)?

[Kiwi]

Can any body tell me if Norton produced the Dominators with chrome guards and primary cover as standard around 1961? I have noticed chrome under the paint on this one, by the way I have purchased it!

[johnnyboy-wonder57]

Kiwi,
Internet Search
As of 1-Jan-2013, Leighs Paints is now trading as Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings. Sherwin-Williams is committed to provide the same quality service that we have for more than 150 years. Soon, our coatings will be delivered in new packing, but the quality of product in the can – and the level of service outside it – will not change. Importantly, you will benefit from the availability of the expanded portfolio of Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings going forward. We look forward to continuing to work with you in the future as your trusted coatings partner.

Sherwin-Williams Protective & Marine Coatings  
Registered in England  Reg Number: 893081 
Reg Office: Tower Works, Kestor Street, Bolton BL2 2AL England

150-year-old Leighs Paints sold to Sherwin-Williams Company
Industrial paint manufacturer Leighs Paints has been sold to US giant Sherwin-Williams Company for an undisclosed sum after more than 150 years under family ownership
 
Industrial paint manufacturer Leighs Paints has been sold to US giant Sherwin-Williams Company for an undisclosed sum after more than 150 years under family ownership.
Bolton-based Leighs employs 260 staff and has operations in Germany, Canada, India and the Middle East.
Chairman Brian Leigh-Bramwell said: “This outstanding company has been a part of my family for the past 151 years.
“I am confident this decision will be of great benefit to both companies and our customers well into the future.”
Turnover for 2009 was £31.2m. The firm reported pre-tax losses of £1.4m for the period due to raw material price pressures and heavy investment in product development and new facilities at its Bolton site.
Sherwin-Williams is a global coatings manufacturer supplying industrial, commercial and retail customers, with a turnover of more than £4.8bn.
Chris Connor, Sherwin-Williams' chairman and chief executive, said: “We are very pleased to bring Leighs Paints, a well-respected company, and their employees into the Sherwin-Williams family.
“Combined, our two companies have nearly three centuries of experience in coatings innovation.
“This is another positive step in our strategy of steady growth and¿ expansion through quality products and people who provide excellent customer service.
“This acquisition reaffirms our strategic commitment to growing globally.”
Sherwin-Williams is based in Cleveland, Ohio and has brands including Ronseal.
George Heath, president of Sherwin-Williams Global Finishes Group, said: “This acquisition is another important step in our efforts to strengthen our growing global platform.”

That may be the end of them in Blighty, Foreign firms often take -over firms here & wind up the acquisition, shifting production elsewhere, I hope that's not going to be the case, Leigh Paints is in Bolton Lancashire, they were famous for supplying the paint for the Firth of Fourth bridge in Scotland.

Not sure of any Brand Names they might of used.

Cheers
John
JBW